Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th March 2019, 21:10   #55381  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
In SDR the difference is more subtle than in HDR and can only be seen on test pattern or very specific scenes but I absolutely hate color banding so PC-mode is out of the question, at least for movies.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 22:36   #55382  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 896
Try NGU Sharp for upscaling.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 22:40   #55383  |  Link
cyberscott
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I suggest everyone running their LG Oleds at 12-bit or in PC-mode to check out Rtings 16-bit gradient test pattern played in madVR.

https://www.rtings.com/images/test-m...ent-16-bit.tif

My LG C8 shows noticeable banding, especially visible in the darker green gradient when using either 12-bit or 8/12-bit PC-mode. In 8-bit, non-pc mode it looks fine.
It was the same on my C6 so I don't really understand if something is wrong with my setup or if other people just don't notice the banding.

By the way PC-mode also forces 3:2 pulldown even when outputting 23.976 Hz.
So you get 4:4:4 chroma and lower input lag but you'll also get color banding and forced 3:2 pulldown.
Thanks for the test pattern!

I tried the test pattern and I do see what you mentioned about the banding in PC mode on the C6. I goes away disabling PC mode and switching to the YCbCr444 color space in the control panel.
To my eyes, the banding is slight and with some madVR setting tweaks, it can be pretty much eliminated in videos but at the cost of more processing power.
I can deal with it but hopefully TV manufactures can sort out PC mode better in the near future.
cyberscott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 23:22   #55384  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberscott View Post
Thanks for the test pattern!

nip nip

Do you guys think, it might be that the Banding is actually gone in other modes, because the LG's internal processor is applying its own debanding?

So with PC mode, it's actually doing the raw input without internal deband, and thereby exhibiting the natural output ?

It doesn't seem right that the banding comes back so consistently on multiple products, unless something internal has been set intentionally.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 01:25   #55385  |  Link
cyberscott
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Do you guys think, it might be that the Banding is actually gone in other modes, because the LG's internal processor is applying its own debanding?

So with PC mode, it's actually doing the raw input without internal deband, and thereby exhibiting the natural output ?

It doesn't seem right that the banding comes back so consistently on multiple products, unless something internal has been set intentionally.
It is entirely possible. Pretty much all picture enhancements are disabled in PC mode in order to get RGB 4:4:4 and the lower latency.
All the other modes have some or all of the enhancements available.
I enjoy the over all picture quality of C6 in conjunction with madVR in PC mode. Best thing to do is just experiment with the other modes and choose what looks best for YOU.
cyberscott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 01:55   #55386  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
No need to quote an entire post directly above yours, thanks.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 12:41   #55387  |  Link
madjock
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 259
Having a play with one of the latest test builds of HDR->SDR now I have a graphics card that can handle it. I think it looks really nice, but unsure if this is because my SDR is calibrated more for blacks and whites (using test patterns and nothing fancy) and going from HDR to an HDR -> SDR comparison is hard to compare as I cannot really calibrate the HDR side, so the SDR looks brighter and punchier for an initial comparison.

Any expert or more experienced person done a more in depth analysis with an LED TV and have any thoughts ?
__________________
Windows 10-1909 | i5-3570k | GTX 1070 Windforce OC Rev2 8GB : 430.64 | Pioneer VSX-534 | Philips 65PUS6703 - 65"
madjock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 13:22   #55388  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
So I just measured a 50 point saturation sweep using 20% pattern stimulus on my LG C8 in PC HDMI input mode (4:4:4 chroma) vs standard HDMI input mode.
All picture enhancement settings were disabled. GPU was set to RGB Full 8-bit.



That pretty much confirms the banding I'm seeing when using pc-mode.
I didn't even bother to check other colors.

Last edited by j82k; 18th March 2019 at 13:30.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 14:07   #55389  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
So with PC mode, it's actually doing the raw input without internal deband, and thereby exhibiting the natural output ?
But you should not see banding with madVR if dithering is configured correctly, so "raw input" on the TV should not show it either. IMHO it's caused by multiple low-quality conversions inside the TV because some of the image processing pipeline cannot handle RGB. The fact PC mode adds other issues (3:2 judder on 24p) is weird too.
If you want to check if the LG is running a debanding algorithm on its inputs when not in PC mode, you can disable dithering in madVR and then compare PC and standard mode again.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 14:41   #55390  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
The fact PC mode adds other issues (3:2 judder on 24p) is weird too.
Not really weird. Even in standard HDMI mode you need to enable "real cinema" to get proper 24p cadence but that also adds input lag and in pc-mode this option is greyed out (permanently disabled).

Though I've successfully created a 48Hz custom refresh rate (using 50Hz as a base) as a workaround and that way you can get proper cadence for movie content even in pc-mode.

Last edited by j82k; 18th March 2019 at 14:44.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 15:55   #55391  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by madjock View Post
Having a play with one of the latest test builds of HDR->SDR now I have a graphics card that can handle it. I think it looks really nice, but unsure if this is because my SDR is calibrated more for blacks and whites (using test patterns and nothing fancy) and going from HDR to an HDR -> SDR comparison is hard to compare as I cannot really calibrate the HDR side, so the SDR looks brighter and punchier for an initial comparison.

Any expert or more experienced person done a more in depth analysis with an LED TV and have any thoughts ?
I have set-up an LED TV like this:

2.40 (madVR) -> 2.20 (display)

Because the image is actually getting brighter at the display, I increased the real display peak nits / lower limit in madVR to 225 nits to prevent the image from appearing washed out.

Set like above, the difference in brightness between HDR and SDR is actually reasonably close when the dynamic target nits in the test builds is making the decision on the end display brightness as the movie plays. UHD Blu-ray actually looks better than SDR Blu-ray in most cases, with some exceptions where SDR Blu-ray is noticeably brighter.

For a fair comparison, use full-bitrate UHD rips and not any of the UHD torrents out there that suffer from visual loss of quality.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 17:19   #55392  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
So I just measured a 50 point saturation sweep using 20% pattern stimulus on my LG C8 in PC HDMI input mode (4:4:4 chroma) vs standard HDMI input mode.
All picture enhancement settings were disabled. GPU was set to RGB Full 8-bit.



That pretty much confirms the banding I'm seeing when using pc-mode.
I didn't even bother to check other colors.

SO they make the panel, they probably have to do a sweep / precalibration of some sort

My point is maybe that table gets disabled in PC mode to trade for response time or something.

So you're getting a more raw version of what the panel should look like .

This may actually be a better mode to calibrate under, because then correction is not happening twice, once by chip, once by gpu.

How do calibrated luts look on this mode ? still banding ?
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 17:43   #55393  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
What I assume could be happening is that the TVs internal lut works at less precision in pc-mode. If it is input lag related then the game preset which has the same input lag as pc-mode should also suffer from increased banding. Gonna check that out later.

I did create a 3dlut calibration in pc-mode once but it didn't turn out good, which isn't surprising. To correct all of these banding errors (they are everywhere in the low end range) would require an insane amount of corrections.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2019, 20:53   #55394  |  Link
XMonarchY
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
Many of us have got around that problem by using the CRU utility to create custom resolutions, then using madVR to optimize them. CRU apparently adds the custom settings at the OS level rather than the GPU level which protects them from driver-level changes.
Could you help me out with that? I could never figure out on how to add the same exact custom resolution that madVR adds via CRU...
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 00:21   #55395  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 491
Although you can enter any values you want into CRU, it's generally better to create a custom resolution with the default EDID settings in CRU, then use madVR to create the optimizations.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 10:31   #55396  |  Link
chros
Registered User
 
chros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Could you help me out with that? I could never figure out on how to add the same exact custom resolution that madVR adds via CRU...
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...98#post1868998
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v398.18),Win10 LTSC 1809,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED77G2(2160p@23/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz) | madvr config
chros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 10:53   #55397  |  Link
thighhighs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
What I assume could be happening is that the TVs internal lut works at less precision in pc-mode. If it is input lag related then the game preset which has the same input lag as pc-mode should also suffer from increased banding. Gonna check that out later.

I did create a 3dlut calibration in pc-mode once but it didn't turn out good, which isn't surprising. To correct all of these banding errors (they are everywhere in the low end range) would require an insane amount of corrections.
Game mode is specifically designed to reduce input lag for games Changing the input to "PC", but without turning on the game mode, you will get the PC-Desktop mode with improvements to read the text. I don't have a C8, but I have two LG TVs and dont think LG has made new logic.
If you looking for an accurate picture mode for madvr and movies, try isf Expert mode first, this made for it. Game mode is alternative for people who want chroma 4:4:4.

edit: Your input always should be set to PC, otherwise you trash Windows and apps quality. In this mode TV internally has fps-based source detection with different picture settings, so no reasons to switch input, if you dont watch tons of high framerate movies, of course.

Last edited by thighhighs; 19th March 2019 at 12:02.
thighhighs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 12:01   #55398  |  Link
TheProfosist
Registered User
 
TheProfosist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 136
anyone have a screenshot of what the madVR OSD shows when madVR is in fullscreen exclusive mode?

I ask because mine just says full screen windowed. Also there isn't that delay when going fullscreen. Manually triggering it via shortcut doesn't seem to do anything either.
TheProfosist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 12:25   #55399  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
@thighhighs
Wow, there is so much wrong with what you just said and I'm not even gonna bother correcting your statements. It seems like you didn't even read (or understand) my previous posts....

edit: also the issues discussed were specific to watching movies via madVR on LG Oleds and not about windows usage.

Last edited by j82k; 19th March 2019 at 12:40.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 12:57   #55400  |  Link
thighhighs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfosist View Post
anyone have a screenshot of what the madVR OSD shows when madVR is in fullscreen exclusive mode?

I ask because mine just says full screen windowed. Also there isn't that delay when going fullscreen. Manually triggering it via shortcut doesn't seem to do anything either.
https://miku.hatsune.my/potplayer-wi...usive-mode.jpg Screenshot from google. Try tick\untick some checkboxes from general settings section. Or if you on Win10 just use windowed mode and dont care about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
@thighhighs
Wow, there is so much wrong with what you just said and I'm not even gonna bother correcting your statements. It seems like you didn't even read (or understand) my previous posts....
When watch movies you use game or desktop modes with 4:4:4 chroma, because 4:4:4 chroma. And reported about bad picture (banding). I miss something?

Quote:
also the issues discussed were specific to watching movies via madVR on LG Oleds and not about windows usage
Who care about properly connection...
thighhighs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.