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Old 10th April 2009, 13:00   #2001  |  Link
herrde
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The strange thing is that if tsmuxer's "AVCHD disc" mode is used, the output is still not USB-compliant, at least not with the PS3 as long file names (non-8.3) are used... even though they say in the release notes "use this mode when using a USB device".

You still have to run it through a tool like AVCHDme or similar in order to make it playable on a PS3. Therefore, I wonder what the difference between tsmuxer's "Blu-ray disc" and "AVCHD disc" mode actually is...

Can anybody shed some light on this?

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Old 10th April 2009, 13:05   #2002  |  Link
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Did you read few posts back?

And yes tsmuxer produces - "AVCHD disc" - not USB/SD output. It's up to the user to decide what to do with the files - burn to dvd/bd or rename to 8.3 and transfer to solid-state media.
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Last edited by deank; 10th April 2009 at 13:13.
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:11   #2003  |  Link
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I do think --avchd should be coded to be used only for usb devices but it's changed into the new --blu-ray if that makes any sense.

I'm not exactly sure when they changed --blu-ray between 1.8.35 and 1.9.4 but in the past few days there hasn't been any reports of it working on SAP's there has been some failures though. As far as I know it went through this change to solve vc-1 playback on panasonic players, which isn't a common situation and could be solved by other means actually the header change on the newly fixed mpls/clpi might just do it.

AVCHD disk might be technically more accurate, but in it's current state it hasnt shown to fix anything but breaks a lot of tools that choose to upgrade and changes everyone's mindset from bluray to avchd without really telling anyone about it. AVCHD in consumer electronics almost always refers to data on a hard drive/usb drive and about the only thing that's on disk is blu-ray.

Last edited by turbojet; 10th April 2009 at 13:22.
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:25   #2004  |  Link
herrde
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In the release notes, it says:

Quote:
The mode "Create AVCHD disk" is recommended for DVD disks. Use mode "Create Blu-ray disk" if you want to write files to blue-ray disk.
This doesn't make any sense to me. If I use the "Create Blu-ray disc" mode which is (according to these release notes) to be used for BD-R burning only, I can still take the output and burn it to a DVD-R with UDF 2.50 and it's recognized and playable on at least the PS3, isn't it? So what's the "Create AVCHD disk" mode in tsmuxer good for?

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Old 10th April 2009, 13:30   #2005  |  Link
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Create blu-ray disc will not work on a ps3, it changes headers to 200 and doesn't have idex, this currently is only useful in the vc-1 with panasonic situation.

Create avchd is what create blu-ray disc used to be and should work for both dvd and bd.

So basically what you've been using for however long you've been using the program doesn't do what it used to.

One of those options needs to go or change drastically in my opinion.

I know I'm sticking with 1.8.30 - 1.8.34 for real stuff and newer versions are like pre-alpha to me at the moment which is only for testing.

Last edited by turbojet; 10th April 2009 at 13:34.
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:38   #2006  |  Link
deank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Create blu-ray disc will not work on a ps3, it changes headers to 200 and doesn't have idex, this currently is only useful in the vc-1 with panasonic situation.
I think --blu-ray output will work with PS3 or other SAPs but only if burned to BD-R/RE, not with DVD media and I think it's what it is supposed to do. --avchd will work if burned to DVD media or 8.3 transferred to usb/sd. I hope that clears the misunderstanding.
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:42   #2007  |  Link
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That very well could be, but if --avchd just replaced --blu-ray then --avchd has been tested for months on bdr with no failures.

So outside of vc-1 on panasonic, which I believe should be fixed but in a different way, there is no logical reason for both outputs.

Last edited by turbojet; 10th April 2009 at 13:46.
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:48   #2008  |  Link
herrde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deank View Post
I think --blu-ray output will work with PS3 or other SAPs but only if burned to BD-R/RE, not with DVD media and I think it's what it is supposed to do. --avchd will work if burned to DVD media or 8.3 transferred to usb/sd. I hope that clears the misunderstanding.
OK, now you guys made me curious. I will run some tests now with DVD-R and BD-R media and find out if deank is right. I will report back in a couple of minutes.

I've already found out one thing which under these circumstances is obvious, but I still want to mention it: if you use tsmuxer's new "Create Blu-ray disc" mode and then run the output through the AVCHDme 1.4 tool, it still doesn't work on a PS3. Just for your info.

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Old 10th April 2009, 13:54   #2009  |  Link
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oh is this thread turning to another tsmuxer thread?
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:55   #2010  |  Link
deank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herrde View Post
if you use tsmuxer's new "Create Blu-ray disc" mode and then run the output through the AVCHDme 1.4 tool, it still doesn't work on a PS3. Just for your info.
It will never work in PS3 with DVD/USB if IDEX is missing (i.e. --blu-ray output). It however should work if burned to BD. I can't test it with BD, but if you can - let us know.
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Old 10th April 2009, 14:00   #2011  |  Link
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idex could very well be the reason full backups in BD-RB aren't working on dvd, sorry to post it here but I do think the answer, if there is one, lies within multiavchd workings. But I wonder how the idex could be produced.
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Old 10th April 2009, 14:30   #2012  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deank View Post
It will never work in PS3 with DVD/USB if IDEX is missing (i.e. --blu-ray output). It however should work if burned to BD. I can't test it with BD, but if you can - let us know.
OK, test finished. Here we go:

- tsmuxer's new "Blu-ray disc" mode works flawlessly with BD-R(E) media on the PS3 (and obviously on software players, just tested with Cyberlink PowerDVD 7.3 Ultra)

- it doesn't work with DVD-R media. The disc is recognized by the PS3, but just as a Data Disc. You can only navigate to the STREAM folder and play the M2TS files "manually".

- it doesn't work either with USB media, not even if output is processed with AVCDHme or similar tools (just as I remarked further above).

So all in all, deank was right (as always ). The new tsmuxer "Create Blu-ray disc" mode only works with BD-R(E) media.

Which takes me to the final question: Do I have any advantage when choosing the "Blu-ray disc" mode with BD-R(E) media? Is this mode maybe more compatible to other SAPs (like turbojet says about the Panasonic)?

Best,

Gero
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Old 10th April 2009, 15:02   #2013  |  Link
deank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herrde View Post
Do I have any advantage when choosing the "Blu-ray disc" mode with BD-R(E) media? Is this mode maybe more compatible to other SAPs (like turbojet says about the Panasonic)?
Yes, I think it was one of the reasons to separate the options in tsMuxeR - if you're going with BD discs - it should be better to use the --blu-ray switch/mode.

As we all know, the bigger problem is with DVD media. Then it comes to the sap manufacturers to decide how to handle DVD media with HD content.

Some players (like Sony 3xx series) doesn't really care what the media is, but what the content is, so they play full BD backups (with index.bdmv without the idex part) and will also play the avchd-like discs with idex, too.

Other players (like Panasonic) will not accept true BD content on DVD media unless it has this idex and then IF they play the content, certain limitations are applied (no BDJ support, reduced navigation-commands support in movieobject, etc).

It is impossible to change the way your BD player will handle DVD discs with BD content - it is up to the firmware programmers.

I think, for now, the only thing that works 100% is BD content on BD-R/RE disc (with or without the idex) - anything else is dependent on player/model/firmware.

***

Here is another thought:

I was thinking few weeks ago about checking some PSR registers in these different modes. It is known that PSR31 holds the information for BD player profile and version, so I was thinking if the value changes in different modes / with different media.

I may try to create a sample structure to burn on DVD and another to burn on BD-RE. It will display graphical information based on what your BD player reports for various PSR registers, and especially PSR31.

Dean
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Last edited by deank; 10th April 2009 at 18:51.
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Old 10th April 2009, 15:34   #2014  |  Link
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Very good idea! If you need my help with testing, just let me know!

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Old 10th April 2009, 17:18   #2015  |  Link
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This is what I've come across from various sources.

BD-RETAIL-BDJ: 80 00 00 00
BD-RETAIL BDJ: A0 00 00 00
BD-RETAIL-HDMV: 40 00 00 00
BD-RETAIL HDMV: 40 00 00 00
BD-RETAIL NO MENU: 40 00 00 00
HQV-AVCHD-MENU: 40 00 00 00
multiavchd with menu: 40 00 00 00
TSMuxer: 10 00 01 00

maybe this help
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Old 10th April 2009, 17:19   #2016  |  Link
deank
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Also... about the IDEX segment in index.bdmv...

It seems that there are two "secret" values, called ID1 and ID2, which define what exactly will be the content (ID1) and subcontent (ID2) of the IDEX block. At this time the only known (to me) pair of ID1 and ID2 is 0x10 0x00 0x01 0x00 (ID1= 0x1000 and ID2=0x0100). These values refer to information stored in SAPs chips/firmware-code and are defined by the licensor (ID1 or ID1&ID2) and the hardware manufacturer (ID2). Usually you'll find these values at offset 0x84 - 0x87 in index.bdmv. On top of it - index.bdmv can contain multiple IDEX blocks, all with (mandatory) different pairs ID1+ID2.

A disc being AVCHD is indicated by ID1 set to 0x1000 - this is very important and is the FIRST thing a player will check and act accordingly.

AVCHD index.bdmv is much much more complicated than a regular BD index.bdmv and can contain tons of information about titles like playlists, recording information, write protection, etc...

I posted before, but will do it again: AVCHD clpi and mpls files contain similar extended information (CLEX/PLEX) which also affects playback.

All these things are related to making a working SDHC playback for Panasonic TVs/BD players and even directly in your camera

A small reminder about AVCHD - it is media independent (unlike BDMV) and players are bound to support it on all storage media - SD cards, Memory Stick, USB flash and HDD drives, DVD and BD discs. Of course - once in AVCHD mode, a player may pose limitations set by the AVCHD standard, such as video codec, frame-rate, secondary video/audio and PIP, Java, etc.

All this should have gone into the new thread I was thinking of ("who is who") but anyway...
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Old 10th April 2009, 17:40   #2017  |  Link
deank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
This is what I've come across from various sources.
The example I gave was with one title only. You'll find these values in multiAVCHD's index @ offset 0x258.

Otherwise their location is set by the 4 byte value @ offset 0x0C plus 0x0C (if 0x0C thru 0x0F are non-zero) - as in multiAVCHD 0x0c-0x0f shows 00 00 02 4C so you get 0x24C + 0xC = 0x258.

I doubt that any of the retail discs you checked use IDEX. They should have 00 00 00 00 at offset 0x0C.

If you remember - that was the idea of goBD - to add the IDEX to a standard BDMV index.bdmv, by changing these four zeroes to a new IDEX offset, adding the IDEX and converting it to AVCHD index.bdmv, thus lifting the media restriction of BDMV and forcing the player to accept BD content from DVD (as it seems to work with PS3).

*** edit: Few tests with different values for ID1 proved that PS3 will not detect AVCHD if ID1 is anything but 0x1000.

*** edit: More information is available in patents. Click here: or link#1 | link#2 | link#3 | link#4
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Last edited by deank; 10th April 2009 at 20:13.
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Old 10th April 2009, 18:05   #2018  |  Link
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Oh I see, you are correct no retails I have here have anything but 00 00 00 00 at 0x0C thru 0x0F
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Old 10th April 2009, 18:51   #2019  |  Link
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Deank:

I tried first, using only the complete setup from this topic first page. Didn't work. Then, i downloaded Ts Muxer 1.9.1b, and applied the new files in tools folder, over. Didn't work too.

PROBLEM SOLVED

Last edited by Edujr; 11th April 2009 at 06:26. Reason: PROBLEM SOLVED
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Old 10th April 2009, 18:58   #2020  |  Link
deank
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I doubt you're using the correct tsmuxer or FULL download - it was updated today. You'll need tsmuxer 1.9.3 or 1.9.4. Download it from this link.

Also you can try directly with tsmuxerGUI.
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