madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[xabregas]

I dont really care about sharpness loss as i can do sharp with ffsdhow/ ffsdshow raw if i wish or with driver settings, the problem was the flickering and knowing if i need to use reclock or not. So reclock isnt needed at all when smooth motion is on and ive just unchecked the trade quality for performance option. Anyway just the smooth in quickly action scenes and fight scenes is awesome. There are movies i saw without smooth motion and when i see them now for me its completly new. Some figh scenes i now can clearly see what happens, AMAZING

But still 1 option in trade quality for performance is checked (store custom pixel shader results in 16bit buffer. instead of 32bit Wonder what it does

I have an ati HD7770 and im in windows 8 x64

TIA

[DragonQ]

madshi, if I play a 1080i/30 file which is really 1080p/24 and then turn on IVTC, it plays back properly at 24 fps. However, smooth motion doesn't enable (60 Hz monitor) and "movie" is still set to 29.970 fps. A bug?

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

madshi, if I play a 1080i/30 file which is really 1080p/24 and then turn on IVTC, it plays back properly at 24 fps. However, smooth motion doesn't enable (60 Hz monitor) and "movie" is still set to 29.970 fps. A bug?

Smooth motion with 1080i30 IVTC looks perfectly fine on my system.

[dansrfe]

Is BFI planned for any future madVR build? Just curious...

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by e-t172

Smooth motion with 1080i30 IVTC looks perfectly fine on my system.

With a 60 Hz monitor and "only if there would be motion judder without it" ticked?

[leeperry]

Talking about BFI, this link is rather interesting

Of course it dims the display and will make light bleeding/clouding even more noticeable as you'll be forced to increase the backlight brightness in order to compensate, but on Sammy TV's BFI really does wonders to my eyes(that just can't bear PWM dimming and have been watching CRT's since forever).

I've spent a few hours playing around with several 2013 Sammy TV's and as much as the new 5 serie provides BFI & DNIE(serie 4 only provides BFI), in the 6 serie you can only enable BFI if you have FI enabled, duh! That sure wasn't the case in the 2012 models, impressive failtastic choice here...as I had my eyes on the 32F6800, in order to increase my chances of winning the panel lottery

Anyway UHD is coming and as much as the current HDMI specs would only allow 2160p up to 30Hz, several of them seem to allow 1080p@120Hz so I believe BFI from the PC would make sense.

Either way, even at 100% brightness all the PC monitors I've seen hurt my eyes so I dunno wth is up.....OTOH even the cheapest TV's don't, so it might indeed be a problem with PWM after all

PS: ouuuuh 500Hz Native Refresh Rate — No Interpolation!

[mdrejhon]

Here's a web-based demonstration of black frame insertion:

www.testufo.com/#test=blackframes

You need a very recent web browser for these precision animations. I recommend Chrome when viewing the above link. (FireFox won't play smoothly until Version 24+ pre-beta)
Try out the other UFO motion tests selectable at top-right corner, including the Optical Illusion Demo as well as 30fps-vs-60fps Demo.

Note: I'm the one who runs the Blur Busters Blog.

[dansrfe]

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

Here's a web-based demonstration of black frame insertion:

www.testufo.com/#test=blackframes

I'm running chrome 30 and I see "poor performance" when running the BFI test above. ~32 fps, ~32Hz, ~30 PPF, ~960 PPS. I'm running no other tabs, browsers or other applications other than a code editor. i7, GTX 670, 16GB RAM.

Maybe you need to use requestAnimationFrame? Or are you already? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/...AnimationFrame

[Mark Rejhon]

(EDIT: It appears I somehow have an old duplicate account created many years ago, I'll need to ask a mod to remove 'mdrejhon')

-- It already is. Launch chrome://gpu and make sure Chrome is GPU accelerated in all categories. If you've made modifications to your high-precision timer, this can interfere. If you are using a SLI/multimonitor system, there's a Chrome issue regarding that (I've forgotten the Chromium bug #). Alternatively, try FireFox 24+ Aurora.
-- You can try IE10, if you're only using a 60Hz monitor. It also synchronizes to VSYNC too.
-- I just prefer Chrome since it supports 120fps@120Hz on 120Hz monitors. My weblogs shows several 120Hz and 144Hz users playing these animations at full framerates (e.g. 120fps@120Hz).
-- Supported browsers (if GPU accelerated): FF24+, Opera15+, Chrome18+, IE10+, and Mac's Safari6+. The TestUFO site performs at 60fps on iPads too (iPad 2 and newer)

[turbojet]

Thanks for the tests, they work fine here with Chrome 28 and many tabs open.

I'm not sure I prefer 30+BFI over 30fps, bfi is higher clarity but the pulsating gave me a headache within a minute. Maybe it takes some getting used to but currently prefer the occasional blended frame with frc to it.

Users that are asking for bfi, is it to replace or complement frc?

[Mark Rejhon]

Ah yes -- www.testufo.com/#test=blackframes is just a demo of software-based BFI, which flickers like a 30Hz CRT to show how flicker can reduce motion blur. I agree, 30Hz flicker is annoying! But that web animation is actually quite useful to help people understand how and why BFI reduces motion blur. If you have a 120Hz monitor, you can also do software-based BFI to have blur-free 60fps@120Hz, and the 60Hz flicker is far less annoying.

Ideally, hardware-based BFI at 120Hz or 240Hz is even better. That eliminates the flicker annoyance for most. Some 120Hz monitors with LightBoost actually already do this, by turning off the backlight while waiting for LCD pixels to finish refreshing (high speed video), and strobing between the refreshes. They flicker like a 120Hz CRT, but that allows the CRT motion clarity effect during 120fps@120Hz videogames, as well as zero-motion-blur playback of 120fps videos (e.g. pre-interpolated first with SmoothVideo, etc).

P.S. Another fun animation is the optical illusion at www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking

[dansrfe]

I just tested my browser's fps capability on this page: http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/pe...k/default.html (with 1000 fish) and it renders at 60fps. Not sure why the BFI test says poor performance and stops at ~30fps...

[sneaker_ger]

So, the first official/public XySubFilter beta has been released and since it is - to my knowledge - the only filter making use of a new (open) custom subtitle interface supported by madVR, it might be of interest to some:
http://code.google.com/p/xy-vsfilter...easeNotes?tm=6 (changelog/description)
http://code.google.com/p/xy-vsfilter...Downloads?tm=2 (download, scroll down to XySubFilter)

Unlike (xy-)vsfilter, it renders subtitles at the target resolution instead of the video resolution, so subtitle quality can get enhanced greatly. Since most video content is 4:2:0 this even goes for 1080p videos on a 1080p screen, although the difference is not that big as for in this example SD videos. The difference to the internal MPC-HC subtitle filter is the new interface and huge (performance) improvements, bug fixes and maybe some features. Since it does not sit between the video decoder and madVR it is compatible with DXVA2 (native).

Any questions that are not directly related to the madVR<>XySubFilter interaction should be posed in the following thread to not stray off the topic of this thread too far:
xy-VSFilter Project (High Performance VSFilter Compatible Subtitle Filters)

[Soukyuu]

Well, since madvr is currently the only renderer supporting XySubFilter, I imagine most questions will be posted here anyway.
Here's the first one: I have the latest mpc-hc+madvr+xysubfilter beta. The .ass subtitles are rendered in an opaque black box instead of blending it unto the video, does anyone else have this problem?

[xabregas]

So i use MPC internal subtitle filter. Why should i change to xyvsfilter?

My problem with vsfilter is that i always need to extend to 16:9 to put subtitles in the black bars when watching 2.35 movies and i always feel the filter mess up the PQ a bit

[kasper93]

@sneaker_ger, please make new thread for it. No need to spam in madVR thread.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by kasper93

@sneaker_ger, please make new thread for it. No need to spam in madVR thread.

It's most certainly a useful post and is somewhat related. He was aware it was not the place for discussion and made the appropriate remark.
Personally I think Cyberbeing should make a new thread for it here but there is one over at the CCCP forum where I suggest people direct their questions and issues right now.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by xabregas

Now my problem is i have 60HZ screen with no 24p option and i have 23,976 and 25 FPS material. Do i need to use reclock pal speed down when watching 25 FPS with madvr smooth motion on??

I tested both and it gave me flickering with reclock and without reclock minor ghosting, but more than i have with 23,976 material

Some people are reporting ghosting. I don't know why, I don't see it myself. Either I'm just not as perceptive to this kind of artifacts, or maybe your display uses a different refresh rate than 60Hz. E.g. if your display internally uses 70Hz, then it will probably repeat some frames to get from 60Hz to 70Hz. If those repeated frames happen to be madVR blended frames, you will see obvious ghosting. But I don't really know if that's what's happening on your PC. Can your display handle 72Hz in native display resolution? If so, try that.

Reclock is not needed for smooth motion to work correctly.

Originally Posted by xabregas

But still 1 option in trade quality for performance is checked (store custom pixel shader results in 16bit buffer. instead of 32bit Wonder what it does

If your PC is fast enough, uncheck all those "trade quality for performance" options.

Originally Posted by DragonQ

madshi, if I play a 1080i/30 file which is really 1080p/24 and then turn on IVTC, it plays back properly at 24 fps. However, smooth motion doesn't enable (60 Hz monitor) and "movie" is still set to 29.970 fps. A bug?

Do you happen to use native DXVA decoding? IVTC doesn't work in that case.

Originally Posted by dansrfe

Is BFI planned for any future madVR build? Just curious...

Was discussed before. You should be able to find it via search.

Originally Posted by sneaker_ger

So, the first official/public XySubFilter beta has been released and since it is - to my knowledge - the only filter making use of madVR's new subtitle interface, it might be of interest to some

There will be an official thread for it here on doom9 soon. FWIW, the new subtitle interface is not "mine", although I played a role defining it and the header is hosted on my server. Still, it's a BSD licensed open specification and can be used by anyone who's interested. An MPC-HC dev already hinted that maybe they could use it for the MPC-HC internal renderers, too, but that's far from a "done deal". In any case, it's not "madVR's new subtitle interface", but just the "new subtitle interface" and madVR is one of the first who supports it. Just to clarify the situation...

Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Here's the first one: I have the latest mpc-hc+madvr+xysubfilter beta. The .ass subtitles are rendered in an opaque black box instead of blending it unto the video, does anyone else have this problem?

The way the new subtitle interface works, madVR needs the GPU to perform subtitle alpha blending - and in 16bit. Unfortunately some older GPUs only support alpha blending in 8bit. For such GPUs you're likely to see an opaque black box instead of smoothly blended subtitles. I'm sorry, but at this point I don't see how I could fix it. It's a hardware limitation of your GPU and the only solution will probably be to upgrade your GPU to a newer model. I believe all newer GPUs can do alpha blending in 16bit without any problems. At least my HD4000 can.

Maybe I'll find a workaround in the long run. But in the short run I don't think I can solve this for old GPUs like yours...

Originally Posted by xabregas

So i use MPC internal subtitle filter. Why should i change to xyvsfilter?

You may want to change to XySubFilter, not to xy-vsfilter. XySubFilter allows you to render subtitles in the same quality as MPC's internal subtitle filter - but with less CPU consumption, with correct colors and with correctly scaled 3D effects. The MPC internal subtitle filter is slower, shows incorrect colors and has problems scaling certain ASS effects correctly.

[Mark Rejhon]

I realized I neglected to *directly* answer a very important question about video renderers that add BOTH interpolation and BFI:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Users that are asking for bfi, is it to replace or complement frc?

Either or both.
Some existing HDTV's do this already by combining scanning backlight (equivalent of hardware BFI) and interpolation.

The problem is that to do both in software, you really need a very high native refresh rate:
(1) 60fps -> 120fps (via interpolation) -> 240fps (via black frames).
(2) 60fps -> 240fps (via interpolation) -> 960fps (via black frames). This is how some expensive Sony "960Hz TVs" work.
This can only be done in hardware, and cannot be done over a video cable. To do this sort of stuff in software, you need high native refresh rate. Usually combining both BFI and interpolation is something mainly done in hardware inside a 240Hz HDTV.

The modern fast-refresh monitors are the 120Hz and 144Hz computer monitors. The 120Hz and 144Hz headroom gives you enough headroom to do software-based BFI, and gives you an opportunity to combine interpolation and BFI, or do some very interesting tricks:
(1) For example, you can interpolate a movie 24fps -> 72fps (interpolation) -> 144fps (BFI) -> 144Hz monitor
(2) Or you can do 30fps -> 60fps (interpolation) -> 120fps (BFI) -> 120Hz monitor

BFI can also be used by itself, too.
(1) You can do 60fps video -> 120fps (BFI) -> 120Hz monitor
(2) Or simulate an old double-strobe flicker movie projector via 24fps -> 48fps (duplicate frame) -> 144fps (BFI at 2:1 ratio) -> 144Hz monitor

There are a lot of great uses for BFI, but software-based BFI is mainly useful with 120Hz monitors because otherwise it flickers too much. I do, however, recommend adding this feature at the video renderer levels (e.g. ffdshow, madVR, etc) and adding a warning that BFI is mainly useful for 120Hz computer monitors, that it requires very accurate synchronization with the monitor (fast system, good performance), and that it can severely darken the image. But that it can be useful when motion blur reduction is critical. It definitely noticeably reduces motion blur and BFI looks much better on 120Hz monitors, but terrible on 60Hz monitors.

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by madshi

Do you happen to use native DXVA decoding? IVTC doesn't work in that case.

No, software. Stepping through frames shows IVTC to 24p is working properly (no repeated frames or combing) but smooth motion doesn't turn on unless I force it in the settings.