G'bye 3rd Party ASP/AVC Filters in WMP/MCE on Win7? - Page 2

Dark Eiri · 27th March 2009, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid_80

That's what I figured. Let's save the "Windows supports MKV!" statements for April Fools.

I've read it on that developing Windows 7 blog, it's in the post with the changes that have been made from Beta to RC. I highly doubt it will happen, but it seems to be true.

djloewen · 27th March 2009, 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Eiri

I've read it on that developing Windows 7 blog, it's in the post with the changes that have been made from Beta to RC. I highly doubt it will happen, but it seems to be true.

I've managed to find this, which doesn't mention Matroska at all:

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/200...ince-beta.aspx

If you can find the blog/post you're referring to, please pass it on, I'd be very curious to see exactly what it says.

albain · 27th March 2009, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by clsid

With SetACL it is possible to take ownership of files and registry keys

Good news, I will give it a try

cca · 27th March 2009, 11:57

I just saw an article in neowin.net, here

Richardw322 · 27th March 2009, 13:53

For what it's worth, I uninstalled MCE in build 7048, and use GBPVR which is a third party media center app, and I get the same behaivior. I can set up GBPVR to prefer FFDshow for h264, but when I play a MKV, it still uses the built in decoder. Note this is with MCE uninstalled. I still have Media Player installed because I like the way it handles playing albums in MP3 format (I like my albums in album order, and don't want to make playlists for them.) If MPC-HC would read tag order for MP3's I would dump WMP in a flash!!

Leak · 27th March 2009, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardw322

If MPC-HC would read tag order for MP3's I would dump WMP in a flash!!

I wouldn't hold my breath, as MPC-HC's playlist functionality is just to queue files and not much else. What you're asking for would be incorporating some kind of media library, which AFAIK nobody is interested in developing.

Why not just use foobar2000 or some other audio-specialised player for audio? Using a video player for that always seemed weird at best to me...

np: The Fireman - Dance 'til We're High (Electric Arguments)

RunningSkittle · 27th March 2009, 16:19

I can try out 7057 with ffdshow later, thats the latest build available.

Richardw322 · 27th March 2009, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leak

I wouldn't hold my breath, as MPC-HC's playlist functionality is just to queue files and not much else. What you're asking for would be incorporating some kind of media library, which AFAIK nobody is interested in developing.

Why not just use foobar2000 or some other audio-specialised player for audio? Using a video player for that always seemed weird at best to me...

Funny, I would like one media player to play it all. Actually, for me perfection would be if MPC-HC took over all Media Center functions. Like time shift TV, play back audio and video, etc. The pieces are all pretty much there. Different strokes I guess. Oh well, I guess I could always make playlists.

Shakey_Jake33 · 27th March 2009, 17:01

MPC's strength has always been it's simplicity, without sacrificing functionality. It was Microsoft's shift towards 'all-in-one' functionality with WMP7 that prompted the creation of MPC in the first place

BetaBoy · 27th March 2009, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cca

I just saw an article in neowin.net, here

Yeah.. its hit a few sites including Gizmondo. But as I stated right from the get go (and everyone is trying to figure out) is seeing if we can confirm if there is an alternative way to add 'any' new ASP and AVC filters to Media Foundation. If we could guess... it would be that when Win7 hits final that MS would have some form of certification process for MF?

Lets see if we get an official response from MS as I know that the reporters that have called me said that they had already made calls to MS about it.

cca · 27th March 2009, 17:11

Many users that visit this forum are advanced enough to use other player but let's not fool ourselves, the majority don't and don't really want to know about alternate players. So WMP and MCE win by default. And with the new DMO filters that play everything with DXVA, at least on nvidia cards, users will care even less. We are the minority

GrofLuigi · 27th March 2009, 18:00

The problem with default security permissions on Vista (and I can't imagine they relaxed them on 7) for the Trusted Installer account is that they are set up initially in such a way that they don't propagate down. The keys owned by Trusted Installer are read only for Administrators.

That means - even if you had taken ownership of everything, for each and every subkey you want to delete (or modify!), you will have to grant yourself privileges - over and over again... It's not impossible, but it's very tedious. It's clearly an anti-tinker measure.

I haven't seen yet an icacls or setacl or... script that takes care of this. But maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

In the past there was just security by obscurity, now it's plain boobytrapping.

GL

lexor · 27th March 2009, 18:36

So, did anyone actually get a reply from MS about this? From what I'm reading here, no one developing DS components asked (one would think such developers would care), just some anonymous reporters (and there is no indication if they got a reply).

So far it looks like the same hysteria that surrounded OpenGL before Vista release.

lexor · 27th March 2009, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrofLuigi

The problem with default security permissions on Vista (and I can't imagine they relaxed them on 7) for the Trusted Installer account is that they are set up initially in such a way that they don't propagate down.

Read ArsTechnica coverage of changes in UAC in 7. Any app, with any access level can disable or circumvent it. I doubt anyone who cares about this will have UAC on in 7... there is no point.

Dark Eiri · 27th March 2009, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by djloewen

I've managed to find this, which doesn't mention Matroska at all:

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/200...ince-beta.aspx

If you can find the blog/post you're referring to, please pass it on, I'd be very curious to see exactly what it says.

Oh, I'm really sorry guys, I misread it. It's MOV, not MKV

GrofLuigi · 28th March 2009, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexor

Read ArsTechnica coverage of changes in UAC in 7. Any app, with any access level can disable or circumvent it. I doubt anyone who cares about this will have UAC on in 7... there is no point.

I was not talking about UAC, I was talking about security permissions (ACLs, security descriptors). UAC can allow or disallow operations onto ACLs, but doesn't affect them.

GL

Edit: You meant this?

Shakey_Jake33 · 28th March 2009, 01:27

Lets be honest though, it's not an acceptable situation to have to be on some kind of 'trusted' list in order to be prioritised. I'm trying to avoid getting carried away with the hysteria here, but if the user doesn't have full control of what codecs they can use (hacks aside), then it's a problem.

BetaBoy · 28th March 2009, 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakey_Jake33

]if the user doesn't have full control of what codecs they can use (hacks aside), then it's a problem.

I think we can all agree to that!

benwaggoner · 28th March 2009, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetaBoy

Yeah... my JAW is still on the ground here if this is true. Also.... how would this effect Silverlight's newly added H.264 support on Windows 7? ie; is Silverlight using an integrated AVC decoder or the media foundation filter?

Silverlight uses its own built-in decoders.

You see, lots of users wind up with all kinds of codec packs installed, and who the heck knows what might get called for a particular codec...

I haven't talked with the Windows team about this issue in particular, but I know that they're tracking a lot of problems users have by the "codec arms race" where codecs rate themselves much higher than they technically merit, and playback experience gets fragile or outright dysfunctional. The people here know how to debug those issues, but I'm sure you've all had to do a fair amount of codec pack fixing as well.

It's a goal of Win7 to have much broader built-in support for media files, so hopefully there will be much less need for 3rd party decoders for common technologies.

tre31 · 28th March 2009, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

Silverlight uses its own built-in decoders.

You see, lots of users wind up with all kinds of codec packs installed, and who the heck knows what might get called for a particular codec...

I haven't talked with the Windows team about this issue in particular, but I know that they're tracking a lot of problems users have by the "codec arms race" where codecs rate themselves much higher than they technically merit, and playback experience gets fragile or outright dysfunctional. The people here know how to debug those issues, but I'm sure you've all had to do a fair amount of codec pack fixing as well.

It's a goal of Win7 to have much broader built-in support for media files, so hopefully there will be much less need for 3rd party decoders for common technologies.

While some of that is understandable, there are things that Microsoft decoders just don't do, and ffdshow does.

Still seems like a paint all with the same tar brush sort of approach when in reality there are quite good solutions out there that are not made by Microsoft, I think possibly the only Microsoft codecs/filters that I know I use regularily are the Mpeg-2 Splitter and the Video Mixing Renderer's.

Cyberlink's Powerdvd decoder's have been far ahead of Microsoft's for quite a while now ...

In the end closing things like this off too a specific few is not a good approach, unless you can certifiably say that your's are the best, and quite frankly I don't think you can - at least not yet.

(I am in no way affiliated with any development teams/codecs/companies .. this is all just my own personal opinion)

27th March 2009, 11:57	#24 \| Link
cca Anime Otaku Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Somewhere in Cyberspace... Posts: 437	I just saw an article in neowin.net, here __________________ AMD FX8350 on Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 / 8192 MB DDR3-1600 SDRAM / AMD R9 285 with Catalyst 1.5.9.1/ Asus Xonar D2X / Windows 10 pro 64bit

27th March 2009, 17:11	#31 \| Link
cca Anime Otaku Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Somewhere in Cyberspace... Posts: 437	Many users that visit this forum are advanced enough to use other player but let's not fool ourselves, the majority don't and don't really want to know about alternate players. So WMP and MCE win by default. And with the new DMO filters that play everything with DXVA, at least on nvidia cards, users will care even less. We are the minority __________________ AMD FX8350 on Gigabyte GA-970A-D3 / 8192 MB DDR3-1600 SDRAM / AMD R9 285 with Catalyst 1.5.9.1/ Asus Xonar D2X / Windows 10 pro 64bit

27th March 2009, 18:36	#33 \| Link
lexor Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 849	So, did anyone actually get a reply from MS about this? From what I'm reading here, no one developing DS components asked (one would think such developers would care), just some anonymous reporters (and there is no indication if they got a reply). So far it looks like the same hysteria that surrounded OpenGL before Vista release. __________________ Geforce GTX 260 Windows 7, 64bit, Core i7 MPC-HC, Foobar2000

27th March 2009, 13:53	#25 \| Link
Richardw322 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 59	For what it's worth, I uninstalled MCE in build 7048, and use GBPVR which is a third party media center app, and I get the same behaivior. I can set up GBPVR to prefer FFDshow for h264, but when I play a MKV, it still uses the built in decoder. Note this is with MCE uninstalled. I still have Media Player installed because I like the way it handles playing albums in MP3 format (I like my albums in album order, and don't want to make playlists for them.) If MPC-HC would read tag order for MP3's I would dump WMP in a flash!!

27th March 2009, 16:19	#27 \| Link
RunningSkittle Skittle Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 539	I can try out 7057 with ffdshow later, thats the latest build available.

27th March 2009, 17:01	#29 \| Link
Shakey_Jake33 Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 233	MPC's strength has always been it's simplicity, without sacrificing functionality. It was Microsoft's shift towards 'all-in-one' functionality with WMP7 that prompted the creation of MPC in the first place

27th March 2009, 18:00	#32 \| Link
GrofLuigi Member of a Library Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 463	The problem with default security permissions on Vista (and I can't imagine they relaxed them on 7) for the Trusted Installer account is that they are set up initially in such a way that they don't propagate down. The keys owned by Trusted Installer are read only for Administrators. That means - even if you had taken ownership of everything, for each and every subkey you want to delete (or modify!), you will have to grant yourself privileges - over and over again... It's not impossible, but it's very tedious. It's clearly an anti-tinker measure. I haven't seen yet an icacls or setacl or... script that takes care of this. But maybe I haven't looked hard enough. In the past there was just security by obscurity, now it's plain boobytrapping. GL

28th March 2009, 01:27	#37 \| Link
Shakey_Jake33 Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 233	Lets be honest though, it's not an acceptable situation to have to be on some kind of 'trusted' list in order to be prioritised. I'm trying to avoid getting carried away with the hysteria here, but if the user doesn't have full control of what codecs they can use (hacks aside), then it's a problem.