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25th May 2009, 21:09 | #1221 | Link |
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I have disabled the 120hz feature on my Samsung Series 9 TV. I just couldn't stand the noise and inability to properly interpolate frames. It seemed to be better at certain types of content than others which actually made the movie look more jittery than the original..... in the case of the Samsung I have to say its a bit of a gimmick. I wonder is taking things upto 600hz an extension of that gimmick. I saw a few photos taken of some of these 100 and 120hz tv's and the interpolated frames of a simple rotating triangle ended up being a blobby mushy circle type thing.
I will most certainly be leaving it off on this TV anyways, can't ever see them being very good without very powerful processors..., but would love to see some really good software interpolaters... the Trimension one looked pretty amazing when it was integrated with some old WinDVD versions. |
25th May 2009, 21:48 | #1222 | Link |
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Trimension in WinDVD effectively halved the vertical resolution. ;-)
By the way, what marketing doesn't tell you for these new 120/600Hz displays is that they actually do the same, i.e. they reduce screen resolution from 1920x1080 to something along 800 lines so that the DSPs can actually handle the sheer amount of data. On my Panasonic (w/ "Intelligent Frame Creation") the loss of resolution is clearly visible, that's why I turn it off except for SD TV feeds. |
25th May 2009, 22:27 | #1223 | Link | |
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25th May 2009, 22:33 | #1225 | Link |
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refresh rate difference are a real pain.
I too have my tv in PC60 mode. I use my HTPC for gaming, tv shows and movies. This mixed content uses every refresh rate ever invented, If i use 60 i get microjudder due to the pulldown, if i use 24, 25 or 30 i still get microjudder for the other content and the desktop/games are terrible. So 60hz with pull down judder is the best solution for now |
25th May 2009, 23:32 | #1227 | Link |
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Oh I know, but believe me when I say, the 3:2 judder in pc mode is far less obtrusive or noticible than the trickery that these so called top of the range LCD's are doing.
I got so used to seeing untouched unalterered images for so long from PC LCD's that I could see the difference immediately. I can hardly notice 3:2 judder, doesn't bother me in the slightest when the picture quality is so good. I am in the same boat as tetsuo but for different reasons, 60hz is pretty good for me for all 24fps content. To me 24fps is such a low frame rate anyways that this tiny bit of added judder is nothing major but I would obv rather proper untouched 24hz, unfortunately not with Samsung anyways. Last edited by mark0077; 25th May 2009 at 23:36. |
26th May 2009, 10:17 | #1229 | Link |
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The 0.10 version is much slower on my 2600 Ati card. The last i tested was 0.3 - inbetween their were some parameters to change the shader model. Are those still in 0.10? Are their any settings to effect speed? Is the LUT faster then using the inbuild conversion math?
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26th May 2009, 11:42 | #1230 | Link | |
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but maybe you were simply trying to reassure yourself to not toss that 60Hz-only flat screen of yours? |
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26th May 2009, 11:46 | #1231 | Link | |
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26th May 2009, 11:56 | #1232 | Link | |
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To summarize what I mean when I say I don't care so much for the difference between 24hz vs 60hz, to give 24p at 24hz vs 24p at 60hz scores out of 10, with 10 being... well like looking through a pane of glass at the action :P ... (hopefully something that improves over time maybe with 48p or 60p), then I would give 24p at 24hz 5 out of ten and 24p at 60hz 4 out of ten... thats the best way I can explain things to you guys, 60hz isn't a a big deal to many when the motion in the first place is rubbish. The tiny judder at 60hz fits in just nicely with the awfully low frame rate we begin with. I suggest some of you guys at least try the PC Mode on your displays. Some of you might be surprised at the difference in quality, no added effects or blurring or... well I can't even explain what some of my family members "top of the line" Tv's do the image to ruin it but I tell you, I definitely would settle for 60hz judder anytime i get a TV that adds too many of these effects. Its kind of a similar situation, once you have seen what images your TV can display with all of the trickery disabled in a pc-like mode, you will never go back Last edited by mark0077; 26th May 2009 at 12:05. |
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26th May 2009, 12:20 | #1234 | Link | |
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I never use flat screens(I hate them tbh ) and I'm perfectly willing to believe that they apply bogus processing....but a CRT or DLP in 48Hz looks perfectly smooth to me, in the idea that the frames interval is spot-on at 41.666~ ms so it's "smooth", the frames don't hiccup...after a while, your brain will accept it as a fact! motion blur is your buddy after all : http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frame...humans_see.htm it's been more or less demonstrated that 72fps is the sweet spot where the brain can be completely fooled. |
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26th May 2009, 12:30 | #1235 | Link | |
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26th May 2009, 12:37 | #1236 | Link |
And so it begins...
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Real 24Hz with full stroboscope effect is smooth as hell! Only the frame repetitions causes the well known motion blur in our brain. This is because out brain itself interpolates the motion between frames and the repeated image is blended with the interpolated image. With 48Hz you can clearly see always two edges/objects in moving scenes. With 72Hz you see three and so on.
Only with 24Hz stroboscope the motion is absolutely smooth. It is stunning if you see this the first time. It just opens your eyes! Suddenly your eye can follow every motion without any annoying blur! Sadly 24Hz also flickers as hell which makes watching impossible for a longer period of time. Manufacturers are aware of this problem and build flashing back light in some LCD TV's to produce black insertion frames like CRT's do. But since the biggest difference in motion blur comes with the first frame repeat (every additional repeat doesn't amplify the motion blur much) the problem can only be solved with temporal interpolation. On one hand I like the smoothness of interpolations like DNM on the other hand the movies are not meant to look like this. I hope there will be cinema with more than 24FPS some day, but this seems to be a very long way... PS: I recommend to try 24Hz to everyone. Some CRT monitors or projectors can do this. For example Sony CRT projectors. Last edited by FoLLgoTT; 26th May 2009 at 12:40. |
26th May 2009, 13:08 | #1237 | Link | |
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It basically says that starting from +/- 500 FPS(of actual footage) the video will be recieved as reality(assuming enough pixels @ distance to viewer) this 500 is the minimum from the perfect viewing angle, and probably a relatively large distance from a small screen |
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26th May 2009, 13:31 | #1238 | Link | ||||
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not quite 500fps, some say 60 is enough, and 72 is definitely reality to the human brain...it would appear.
well, cinema projectors(since the Lumiere brothers invention) play 24fps@48Hz, the shutter speed is twice higher..as explained on page 12 of that (french) PDF : http://www.derriere-le-hublot.com/do...ion_zinema.pdf I use Reclock exactly like this on my DLP projector! 24fps @ 48Hz, and I can easily follow any moving object very distinctively some more food for thoughts, when we discussed this issue on another (private) forum : Quote:
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26th May 2009, 16:58 | #1240 | Link |
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Some of these framerate themes were covered in this thread recently.
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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