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Old 23rd May 2009, 00:53   #421  |  Link
Mtz
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OK, I'm prepared to be scared again: here is another TS sample with sub which can be extracted and the subtitle can be viewed in VLC.
After I extracted the DVB Subtitle with ProjectX and loaded the IDX file, for SUP conversion I have strange grey colors and I don't know how to modify these coloros to look the same way if I want IDX+SUB. For this subtitle is nice to see how the filters are acting.
I don't know how are working the colors for SUP subtitles but can be made some option to have some colors like: white subtitle, dark grey antialias and black outline? I think the most used subttiles are white with black borders, and sometimes yellow instead of white. Of course, the white to be a little grey.

enjoy,
Mtz
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Old 24th May 2009, 16:54   #422  |  Link
SquallMX
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@0xdeadbeef The "Move All" option is not working properly in current release, some subtitles are moved, some are not.

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Old 24th May 2009, 17:48   #423  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Yeah, I'm aware of this issue. Indeed I noticed it last Friday shortly before or after releasing 3.8.1, but I had no time to investigate this - maybe later today, but it's definitely the next thing on my list.
My impression was that this happened only on VobSubs though, not on BD-SUPs and HD-DVD-SUPs. My guess is that this is a problem that was introduced with cropping images - if so it would also exist for XML BDN, but not for SUPs. Then again, this is only a guess at this moment.

[EDIT]
As I assumed, this is a problem of cropping. So I know the problem and I think I know how to fix it, but this will not happen today and maybe not even tomorrow. If this is a blocking point right now, you could export VobSub to VobSub, then re-import the cropped VobSub and use "move captions" on it.

Last edited by 0xdeadbeef; 24th May 2009 at 20:36.
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Old 24th May 2009, 18:20   #424  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
OK, I'm prepared to be scared again: here is another TS sample with sub which can be extracted and the subtitle can be viewed in VLC.
After I extracted the DVB Subtitle with ProjectX and loaded the IDX file, for SUP conversion I have strange grey colors and I don't know how to modify these coloros to look the same way if I want IDX+SUB. For this subtitle is nice to see how the filters are acting.
I don't know how are working the colors for SUP subtitles but can be made some option to have some colors like: white subtitle, dark grey antialias and black outline? I think the most used subttiles are white with black borders, and sometimes yellow instead of white. Of course, the white to be a little grey.
The problem here seems to be that ProjectX simply writes wrong palette and alpha info. E.g. if you look at the first decoded frame (verbatim mode):
Palette: 0, 1, 4, 5
Alpha: 0, 2, 9, 13

The colors 1,4,5 in the palette from the IDX are all 1f1f1f, which is some kind of dark grey. Even worse, the transparency values seem to be wrong as well. E.g. "2" is nearly completely transparent, "9" is only about 56% opaque. So the only nearly opaque entry is the forth one.

Now even if I could somehow patch this frame to look ok, the next frame would need a completely different handling:
Palette: 0, 1, 3, 4
Alpha: 0, 2, 4, 9

And so on and so on.

In a nutshell: I don't really feel responsible to work around the bugs in other tools. Besides, it's not as easy as it might seem to you as the color information is simply lost and can't be easily restored if at all.
I'd strongly suggest to ask the authors of ProjectX to simply fix the VobSub export.
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Old 25th May 2009, 19:04   #425  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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25.05.2009 3.8.1 -> 3.8.2
  • Changed: VobSub: alpha of completely invisible captions is patched.
  • Fixed: alpha/luminance comboboxes were disabled since 3.8.0 when switching to VobSub output mode and palette mode was "keep existing"
  • Fixed: "move all captions" didn't work correctly for BDN/XML and VobSub imports (since 3.6.0) if a bitmap was cropped.
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Old 25th May 2009, 20:19   #426  |  Link
DiRTDOG
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Hi I just tried your app to create a new .srt file to work with my Popcorn hour. I need to go from Sup to Srt. Your app worked great to make the sub/idx files but when I convert your sub to srt with SubResync to make the srt file there are space gaps in between the letters. Other srt files made with other programs do not do this so I think it has something to do with your program is there a way to adjust this so it doesnt happen?

Great tool, thanks for the hard work.
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Old 25th May 2009, 21:06   #427  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiRTDOG View Post
Hi I just tried your app to create a new .srt file to work with my Popcorn hour. I need to go from Sup to Srt. Your app worked great to make the sub/idx files but when I convert your sub to srt with SubResync to make the srt file there are space gaps in between the letters. Other srt files made with other programs do not do this so I think it has something to do with your program is there a way to adjust this so it doesnt happen?
This is a pretty strange request as you seem to suggest that I change BDSup2Sub in some magic way to make a third party OCR tool work better. Even if I was able to do this (which I ain't of course), I wouldn't really consider this to be my task.
Anyway: as I already pointed out before, it's generally a bad idea to OCR a scaled down version of the bitmap. I'd suggest (and not the first time in this thread) to use SupRip on the BD-SUP directly or to persuade someone to write a script/tool/whatever that uses a real OCR approach on the PNGs exported by BDSup2Sub.
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Old 25th May 2009, 21:58   #428  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
This is a pretty strange request as you seem to suggest that I change BDSup2Sub in some magic way to make a third party OCR tool work better. Even if I was able to do this (which I ain't of course), I wouldn't really consider this to be my task.
Anyway: as I already pointed out before, it's generally a bad idea to OCR a scaled down version of the bitmap. I'd suggest (and not the first time in this thread) to use SupRip on the BD-SUP directly or to persuade someone to write a script/tool/whatever that uses a real OCR approach on the PNGs exported by BDSup2Sub.
I understand DiRTDOG's request (as every PCH user that wants to play BD-Rips with it) but I have to agree with 0Xdeadbeef's answer. You can't ask him to improve his tool in that way.
I would even suggest (if it's not already done) that you go the NMT Forums and find the thread that asks for PGS support in m2ts file and add your vote (as I've already done myself ) so that we could all (PCH users) enjoy that functionnality on the PCH.

Peas
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Old 27th May 2009, 23:52   #429  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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would it be possible to modify this tool that it can also output as .srt?
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Old 27th May 2009, 23:59   #430  |  Link
PassThePeas
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
would it be possible to modify this tool that it can also output as .srt?
modify ... like in "turning into an OCR" ???

Well, you can wait for 0xdeadbeef answer, but I'd bet on a negative one. There are other tools that do it more or less (read posts just above) ... but don't forget we're talking about OCR ... not an instant and automatic process ...

Peas.
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Old 28th May 2009, 00:00   #431  |  Link
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Adding any kind of OCR support is highly unlikely to say the least.
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Old 28th May 2009, 01:15   #432  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
25.05.2009 3.8.1 -> 3.8.2
  • Changed: VobSub: alpha of completely invisible captions is patched.
  • Fixed: alpha/luminance comboboxes were disabled since 3.8.0 when switching to VobSub output mode and palette mode was "keep existing"
Thank you! Loaded the IDX subtitle from the canal plus sample. Playing in BDSup2Sub with SUP and SUB conversions and the Palette I observed this"
- if I'm using the IDX and create new palette the result is in white (grey) subtitles outlined with black
- if using the SUP setting, the subtitles are grey
So if I want SUP white subtitles outlined with black, first I'm exporting to SUB, then load again the resulted SUB and now is possible to convert it to SUP as desired: white with black outline.
Can be this done in one step? I found the workaround but maybe for other users will be hard to make it.

Regarding the changing of colors maybe I'm dumb, but I don't understand how is working. Maybe I need to learn more. But I saw in DVDSubEdit changing the colors is easy and I understand from the first time how to change the colors. I know the SUPs are more complex.

enjoy,
Mtz
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Old 28th May 2009, 11:25   #433  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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As I already explained, the color and alpha values exported by ProjectX are plain wrong in this case. When either converting to BD-SUP/BDN-XML or when converting to SUP/IDX in "keep existing" palette mode , BDSup2Sub will keep the original (wrong) colors and alpha settings.
In SUB/IDX "create new" mode, BDSup2Sub creates a new 4 color frame palette as explained in the online help. Indeed only 2 colors are really chosen while two are predefined, as are the 4 alpha values per frame.
While this might lead to correct colors in this case, this is more or less coincidental here as it's not the intention of the algorithm to fix wrong colors, but to find a primary text color and chose the other colors to get a bit of anti-aliasing, a black border and a transparent background.
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Old 28th May 2009, 15:54   #434  |  Link
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Are exporting dvd sup's off the table?

If so, could support for exporting 1 of 2 types of pgcedit palettes be a possibility at least?

It would save me and whoever else is doing BD to DVD quite a bit of hassle trying to find the correct colors to use in the palette when doing . I can manage doing bdsup -> vobsub -> dvdsup with subtosup fairly easily just a little loss in quality and one extra step.

Last edited by turbojet; 28th May 2009 at 16:04.
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Old 28th May 2009, 18:26   #435  |  Link
0xdeadbeef
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Are exporting dvd sup's off the table?
This was actually never on my list and chances are very, very low that I will ever add support for DVD SUPs.

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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
If so, could support for exporting 1 of 2 types of pgcedit palettes be a possibility at least?
Well, especially the text format looks simple enough. I'm not quite sure though why a program would prefer importing a palette from a text file instead of the IDX. Besides, I'd guess you'd need about 5 lines of code to write a Perl (or whatever) script that converts the palette from the IDX into this format.

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It would save me and whoever else is doing BD to DVD quite a bit of hassle trying to find the correct colors to use in the palette when doing . I can manage doing bdsup -> vobsub -> dvdsup with subtosup fairly easily just a little loss in quality and one extra step.
Well, I'm converting BDs to DVDs all the time and I never needed it. Also I'm a little puzzled why converting VobSub to DVD-SUP (or vice versa) should introduce a loss in quality. Both formats seem to share the exact same control header structure which controls display of the image including frame palette and alpha values.
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Old 28th May 2009, 19:44   #436  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
This was actually never on my list and chances are very, very low that I will ever add support for DVD SUPs.


Well, especially the text format looks simple enough. I'm not quite sure though why a program would prefer importing a palette from a text file instead of the IDX. Besides, I'd guess you'd need about 5 lines of code to write a Perl (or whatever) script that converts the palette from the IDX into this format.
I'm not sure but vobsub has never had much to do with dvd authoring in the past. I'll see if PGCedit will add it though.

Quote:
Well, I'm converting BDs to DVDs all the time and I never needed it. Also I'm a little puzzled why converting VobSub to DVD-SUP (or vice versa) should introduce a loss in quality. Both formats seem to share the exact same control header structure which controls display of the image including frame palette and alpha values.
How are you doing BD to DVD subs?
Nevermind about the dvd sup vs vobsub quality. I'm used to using MPC-HC evr/directvobsub for rendering vobsubs and powerdvd/tmt3/standalone players for sups. The latter generally renders subs at noticably higher quality. Under the same renderer they look pretty much identical.
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Old 28th May 2009, 22:31   #437  |  Link
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
I'm not sure but vobsub has never had much to do with dvd authoring in the past. I'll see if PGCedit will add it though.
AFAIK, a DVD SUP file contains exactly the same information as a VobSub SUB. Just the packet headers and structure are a little different. My main issue with DVD SUPs is the separate IFO though.

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How are you doing BD to DVD subs?
What would you think? This is actually what I wrote BDSup2Sub for in the first place. As I'm doing the conversion only for family and friends which don't share my high quality demands , I'm using ConvertXtoDVD for creating the DVD.

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Nevermind about the dvd sup vs vobsub quality. I'm used to using MPC-HC evr/directvobsub for rendering vobsubs and powerdvd/tmt3/standalone players for sups. The latter generally renders subs at noticably higher quality. Under the same renderer they look pretty much identical.
They should look absolutely identical (on the same renderer) as they share the same internal representation and format limitations.
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Old 28th May 2009, 23:33   #438  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
AFAIK, a DVD SUP file contains exactly the same information as a VobSub SUB. Just the packet headers and structure are a little different. My main issue with DVD SUPs is the separate IFO though.
Would creating a new ifo be useful for loading color palettes? PGCedit dev seems up to adding idx color import that might be a more logical way then to have an output pgcedit palette option when exporting idx\sub.

If you were ever to add dvd sup export with pgcedit color palette it would be very useful for some and it could open the possibility of exporting other dvd author software that supports external color palettes if any exist.

Quote:
What would you think? This is actually what I wrote BDSup2Sub for in the first place. As I'm doing the conversion only for family and friends which don't share my high quality demands , I'm using ConvertXtoDVD for creating the DVD.
I don't have any experience with ConvertXtoDVD but it allows vobsub as input?

I really don't have much experience with dvd authoring/encoding outside of muxman, ifoedit, cce, hcenc and their frontends like DVD-RB and AVStoDVD.

Quote:
They should look absolutely identical (on the same renderer) as they share the same internal representation and format limitations.
They probably do, I didn't find any noticeable differences in the few minutes I spent comparing. But it seems that sup > vobsub > sup isn't bit for bit identical to the source sup, bunch of changes, so I used nearly identical.
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Old 29th May 2009, 12:41   #439  |  Link
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Would creating a new ifo be useful for loading color palettes?
Well, for a DVD-SUP, the info missing in the SUP is usually stored in/read from the IFO (as the IDX files is used for SUB/IDX). I would suppose that this includes not only the palette, but also the video size. At least info about the video stream is part of the IFO.

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If you were ever to add dvd sup export with pgcedit color palette it would be very useful for some and it could open the possibility of exporting other dvd author software that supports external color palettes if any exist.
I wonder where the sceen size would be stored then. How would an application that reads the SUP + palette know if the captions are meant for PAL or NTSC? Beside: more or less all the applications that import DVD-SUP need the IFO and won't accept anything else.

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I don't have any experience with ConvertXtoDVD but it allows vobsub as input?
Yep. It's commercial and has some other drawbacks though, mainly lack of proper scaling (aliasing artefacts when scaling down due to lack of lowpass filtering) and only single pass encoding. Still, it's good enough for my purposes and I only need three tools in the whole process: EAC3TO, BDSup2Sub and ConvertXtoDVD. Besides, the version 4.x is said to implement better scaling filters and multi-pass encoding.

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They probably do, I didn't find any noticeable differences in the few minutes I spent comparing. But it seems that sup > vobsub > sup isn't bit for bit identical to the source sup, bunch of changes, so I used nearly identical.
Most probably only the RLE buffers differ due to slightly different encoder implementation on different tools.

Anyway, I had a quick look at the IFO format and it might be easier to implement writing a fake IFO and reading colors/fps/resolution from the IFO then I originally thought. So let's say I consider importing/exporting SUP/IFO. This doesn't mean that you can expect it to be implemented any time soon, but it's kinda likely that this will be the next (and probably) last major feature that I will add. Might take a while though.
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Old 29th May 2009, 17:04   #440  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 0xdeadbeef View Post
Well, for a DVD-SUP, the info missing in the SUP is usually stored in/read from the IFO (as the IDX files is used for SUB/IDX). I would suppose that this includes not only the palette, but also the video size. At least info about the video stream is part of the IFO.

I wonder where the sceen size would be stored then. How would an application that reads the SUP + palette know if the captions are meant for PAL or NTSC? Beside: more or less all the applications that import DVD-SUP need the IFO and won't accept anything else.
This type of ifo would be helpful for DVDSubEdit. However for authoring I don't know of a program that could use it. I know muxman, ifoedit, dvdlab, dvdauthor can't. This responsibility lies in the dvd editor such as pgcedit/dvdremake. PGCedit can change colors through either of those 2 files I mentioned. I can't find out how to change sub colors in DVDRemake demo.

Quote:
Yep. It's commercial and has some other drawbacks though, mainly lack of proper scaling (aliasing artefacts when scaling down due to lack of lowpass filtering) and only single pass encoding. Still, it's good enough for my purposes and I only need three tools in the whole process: EAC3TO, BDSup2Sub and ConvertXtoDVD. Besides, the version 4.x is said to implement better scaling filters and multi-pass encoding.
Oh ok I think I will stick to what I've been doing for now even with the extra few steps.

Quote:
Anyway, I had a quick look at the IFO format and it might be easier to implement writing a fake IFO and reading colors/fps/resolution from the IFO then I originally thought. So let's say I consider importing/exporting SUP/IFO. This doesn't mean that you can expect it to be implemented any time soon, but it's kinda likely that this will be the next (and probably) last major feature that I will add. Might take a while though.
OK thanks, even with just the dvd sup export it would take out one step in my process, pgcedit file export would take out another. I could not use the ifo export at all. Ifo import could be quite a benefit for those doing DVD to BD conversions taking out 2-3 steps.
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