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Old 14th May 2018, 15:23   #1  |  Link
K.i.N.G
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AVX512 vs Threadripper in x265

Im currently looking to buy a new render/encoding system.

I can't decide if I should get the threadripper 1950x or the i9 7900x... Looking at several benchmarks and reviews, Threadripper seems to perform really well overall, but what is making me doubt is the lack of AVX512 support.

Since I'm also going to offload a lot of 3D rendering to this system it might be important, but it's hard to tell because I currently I don't know any rendering software that already has AVX512 support.
So I cant find any benchmarks that show me how much of a difference it'll make.

I've always hold off buying a new system because I read how much difference AVX512 could potentially make...

But looking at x265's AVX512 results posted here it seems not to be really worth it... Or might that be because the AVX512 code is not fully ready/optimized yet (considering its only recently added)?

Also, a bit off topic but 3D rendering (ray-tracing) is totally different so I'm wondering how much of a difference AVX512 can make there... (currently no renderer supports it so I have no clue since I know nothing about coding, instruction sets and related maths).

ahhhrgh choices choices....
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Old 14th May 2018, 18:12   #2  |  Link
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From what I remember from the benchmarks, Zen (and thus Threadripper) has some of its strongest results in 3d rendering. It's probably suited it for it even better than for encoding.

If you are not in hurry, you might want to wait till august, that's when the second generation should launch. And in second half of the year, Intel should have i9-7900X replacement too.

On the other hand, now you can get discounts on the current generation, although mainly in USA.
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Old 15th May 2018, 03:31   #3  |  Link
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AVX512 is so badly memory and power bound that x265 can rarely use it effectively. For power, that means tweaking the BIOS and having a very solid cooling solution lined up, because I've heard of AVX512 alone exceeding 300W in unrestricted environments, in addition to the rest of the CPU and system, and for memory, that basically means buying the biggest i9 you can afford (since more cores = more cache = lower latency). Short of that, the investment probably isn't worth it.
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Old 15th May 2018, 16:38   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.i.N.G View Post
I can't decide if I should get the threadripper 1950x or the i9 7900x... Looking at several benchmarks and reviews, Threadripper seems to perform really well overall, but what is making me doubt is the lack of AVX512 support.

ahhhrgh choices choices....
I can make your life easy.

You have no choice. Nothing. Nothing at all.

Between 7900x and 1950x you can only buy one processor and that is of course 1950x or 2950x that will be released at Q3 2018.

The overall difference, as you already know, is huge favoring 1950x especially on rendering/ encoding and AVX512 is nonsense, pure nonsense for almost any task for desktop or even workstation.

You need 6 channel or 8 channel DDR4 or maybe DDR5 (2019/2020) to leverage effectively AVX512 and water cooling in most cases.

Let's forget AVX512 for the next 5 years for desktop and workstation.
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Old 15th May 2018, 17:31   #5  |  Link
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I'd wait a few months for next gen threadripper.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:14   #6  |  Link
RanmaCanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.i.N.G View Post
Im currently looking to buy a new render/encoding system.

I can't decide if I should get the threadripper 1950x or the i9 7900x... Looking at several benchmarks and reviews, Threadripper seems to perform really well overall, but what is making me doubt is the lack of AVX512 support.

Since I'm also going to offload a lot of 3D rendering to this system it might be important, but it's hard to tell because I currently I don't know any rendering software that already has AVX512 support.
So I cant find any benchmarks that show me how much of a difference it'll make.

I've always hold off buying a new system because I read how much difference AVX512 could potentially make...

But looking at x265's AVX512 results posted here it seems not to be really worth it... Or might that be because the AVX512 code is not fully ready/optimized yet (considering its only recently added)?

Also, a bit off topic but 3D rendering (ray-tracing) is totally different so I'm wondering how much of a difference AVX512 can make there... (currently no renderer supports it so I have no clue since I know nothing about coding, instruction sets and related maths).

ahhhrgh choices choices....
Agree with Nikos. Threadripper is your only option, really. Intel's chips are too power hungry, and for the price, not worth it. You would need a ridiculous cooling system and power delivery to maintain loads that Threadripper can handle 24-7. Either get one now, or wait till Q3 and the new ones drop..or get an old one at a discount.

AVX512 is not going to make a difference for at least another 3-4 generations, IF that.
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Old 17th May 2018, 14:46   #7  |  Link
K.i.N.G
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ok, thanks for the help guys... You helped me make up my mind
I think i'll wait a little longer until Q3-Q4. I can imagine i'd be quite disappointed to invest that amount of money for something that will be updated/replaced only in a month or 5-6.
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Old 17th May 2018, 16:32   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
I can imagine i'd be quite disappointed to invest that amount of money for something that will be updated/replaced only in a month or 5-6.
I can't really imagine that this isn't what you need to expect when buying pcs.
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Old 17th May 2018, 22:36   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.i.N.G View Post
ok, thanks for the help guys... You helped me make up my mind
I think i'll wait a little longer until Q3-Q4. I can imagine i'd be quite disappointed to invest that amount of money for something that will be updated/replaced only in a month or 5-6.
And of course the 9700k? should support AVX512 also.

- Well after getting my 8700k yesterday, I finally see what everyone is talking about with core saturation. I'm only getting about 66% cpu use, with moderate vsynth + x265. (576p so far)
Am I correct that the best way around this is to run two encodes at the same time?

Cheers,
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Old 17th May 2018, 23:48   #10  |  Link
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Yes, two encodes at once. Also larger resolutions and slower settings utilize more cores effectively.
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Old 18th May 2018, 15:21   #11  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.i.N.G View Post
ok, thanks for the help guys... You helped me make up my mind
I think i'll wait a little longer until Q3-Q4. I can imagine i'd be quite disappointed to invest that amount of money for something that will be updated/replaced only in a month or 5-6.
Or wait again until mid 2019 for threadripper (24C/48T) with better AVX unit in 7nm...
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Old 19th May 2018, 03:25   #12  |  Link
divxmaster
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Yes, two encodes at once. Also larger resolutions and slower settings utilize more cores effectively.
Thanks, yes you are 100% correct, just tried with 1920x800 and it is using 95-100% all cores. Oh well, guess will use my 4770k for SD and my 8700k for FHD - when my new MB for 4770k arrives as old one blew up

Cheers,
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Old 19th May 2018, 11:09   #13  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divxmaster View Post
Thanks, yes you are 100% correct, just tried with 1920x800 and it is using 95-100% all cores. Oh well, guess will use my 4770k for SD and my 8700k for FHD - when my new MB for 4770k arrives as old one blew up

Cheers,
Divxmaster
If you have two pcs at home then why don't you use them in Distributed Encoding mode? This way you can save a lot of encoding time.

Regarding AVX-512.
Is it me or implementation of AVX-512 in x265 was a waste of time?
https://networkbuilders.intel.com/do...nsions-512.pdf

Quote:
"for server-grade CPUs that have the Intel
AVX-512 instructions, this acceleration should be used only
for certain profiles of x265 that focus on encoding high
resolution video (4K and higher) in the main10 profile using
the slower or veryslow presets due to the impact that the
Intel AVX-512 instructions have to clock frequency. For other
profiles on server CPUs with Intel AVX-512 instructions,
enabling these kernels is not recommended
."

Last edited by Atak_Snajpera; 19th May 2018 at 11:16.
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Old 19th May 2018, 19:37   #14  |  Link
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x265 must have clients who would use slow/veryslow 4K on heavy-duty server cpus, or they wouldn't have bothered -- I imagine Netflix is the main buyer of that feature.
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Old 19th May 2018, 22:02   #15  |  Link
divxmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
If you have two pcs at home then why don't you use them in Distributed Encoding mode? This way you can save a lot of encoding time.
Thx Atak,
yes I also have ripbot264 as an option, I've had a quick play with it.

Cheers,
Divxmaster
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Old 20th May 2018, 09:00   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
Is it me or implementation of AVX-512 in x265 was a waste of time?
I'm noticing a pervading impression that MulticoreWare are only developing x265 for "enthusiast" users, when they are, in fact, developing it as part of a platform for professional/commercial content creators.

Consumers are merely enjoying the consequences of the base encoder being open-source. Most of MCW's HEVC products are propietary.

Specifically regarding AVX512, see here:
https://www.intel.com.au/content/www...ms-uhdkit.html

So, if you don't want to rapidly encode 20 target variations of the one master source, don't have the requisite farm of US$10000 server processors, don't want to encode 4:2:2 4K60 in real-time, or don't actually even use UHDKit (which, I'm guessing, cleverly compartmentalises AVX512 API workloads), then it's easy to dismiss the last year's worth of development as wasted.
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Old 20th May 2018, 13:05   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
If you have two pcs at home then why don't you use them in Distributed Encoding mode? This way you can save a lot of encoding time.

Regarding AVX-512.
Is it me or implementation of AVX-512 in x265 was a waste of time?
https://networkbuilders.intel.com/do...nsions-512.pdf
Really interessing document.

Well I thing that gain in 1080p resolution are realistic. 7900X is 10C/20T CPU. x265 in 1080p can't saturate 8C/16T CPU. 1080p for 8C/16T is something like 60-70% for CPU charge. In this case, no power problem here, and no offset for frequency are necessary (real power will be under TDP).
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Old 20th May 2018, 15:15   #18  |  Link
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IMHO, implementing it was not a waste of time because theory promised the existence of hardware and usage cases where the efficiency advantage could be considerable; but you can't be sure until proven (either right or wrong) by practical tests. And who knows the future ... I won't be surprised if the implementation in x265 may help the designers of coming CPU generations to avoid flaws of the previous.
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Old 24th May 2018, 03:01   #19  |  Link
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Originally Posted by NikosD View Post
I can make your life easy.

You have no choice. Nothing. Nothing at all.

Between 7900x and 1950x you can only buy one processor and that is of course 1950x or 2950x that will be released at Q3 2018.

The overall difference, as you already know, is huge favoring 1950x especially on rendering/ encoding and AVX512 is nonsense, pure nonsense for almost any task for desktop or even workstation.

You need 6 channel or 8 channel DDR4 or maybe DDR5 (2019/2020) to leverage effectively AVX512 and water cooling in most cases.

Let's forget AVX512 for the next 5 years for desktop and workstation.
Unless we're talking strictly about encoding material with > 1080 vertical resolution or running multiple encoder instances simultaneously, Threadripper is is pretty much the worst possible choice for HEVC encoding you can currently get.

Skylake-X has > 50% IPC advantage in the most recent encoder version over Ryzen, due to AVX2 (+41.7%) and AVX512 (+6.1%). Obviously Skylake-X is expensive and the power consumption is rather brutal, but regardless for typical end-user scenarios you're better basically with anything else than Threadripper. On a budget used MCC or HCC Haswell-EP CPUs are probably the best way to go.
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:45   #20  |  Link
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Skylake-X has > 50% IPC advantage in the most recent encoder version over Ryzen, due to AVX2 (+41.7%) and AVX512 (+6.1%). Obviously Skylake-X is expensive and the power consumption is rather brutal, but regardless for typical end-user scenarios you're better basically with anything else than Threadripper. On a budget used MCC or HCC Haswell-EP CPUs are probably the best way to go.
I'm not seeing these gains with my AVX512 testing. Can you check if I have the right CLI options?

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175467
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