Pulldown of 25 fps to NTSC - Page 21

Guest · 30th June 2005, 02:17

It can only repeat fields. You can't do that conversion with DGPulldown.

Xesdeeni · 8th July 2005, 14:41

Just a word of thanks for the utility. I've used it a few times, but it really shines in my latest project.

I have some PAL DiVX files I'm converting to DVD. They are a series of 13 45-minute shows at 640x360 16:9 resolution. Two shows per DVD*R would mean 6 Mbps for the video, which would be pretty good quality. But I really didn't want 7 DVDs. Four shows per DVD*R would mean 3 Mbps for the video. My experience is that MPEG-2 doesn't do so good with 3 Mbps, but that was doing mostly noisy, interlaced sources. So I thought I'd just give it a try with progressive frames and DGPulldown. I used a very good MPEG encoder and multi-pass, and the results are FANTASTIC! Even on my 65" screen, there really isn't much degradation from the already reduced DiVX quality. I attribute this to being able to encode progressive frames and avoiding the 17% extra overhead of field repetition.

So thanks for taking my idea and running with it. It works great!

Two and a half suggestions though:

1. I'm guessing it would be faster to convert if the source and destination could be on different drives. But you can't choose the destination.

1.5. It looks like the files are exactly the same size before and after. Is it possible to modify them in place without copying them?

2. A batch or CLI method would be nice, since I have to convert multiple files after encoding.

Xesdeeni

Prodater64 · 26th July 2005, 01:59

@neuron2: Despite you mentioned command line reference is in the text file, I can' find out that reference. Could you post it here, please?

Prodater64 · 29th July 2005, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xesdeeni

2. A batch or CLI method would be nice, since I have to convert multiple files after encoding.
Xesdeeni

I think there is a cli option (I find out one reference deep in this thread). So I asked neuron2 in my previous post, but still have not answer.
Lets wait until neuron2 read these posts.

Guest · 29th July 2005, 22:47

DGPulldown started out in life as a command line tool but it evolved into a GUI and command line support was lost. I'll keep that and the other suggestions in mind for a rainy day.

Prodater64 · 30th July 2005, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by neuron2

DGPulldown started out in life as a command line tool but it evolved into a GUI and command line support was lost. I'll keep that and the other suggestions in mind for a rainy day.

Is there a working old cli version?
Several encoding tools as DVD2SVCD or DIKO, and another ones not so knew, need a cli version for make life easy to users (included me

).
If there is any version, please post its link (I saw in all yours dgpulldown version txt files, but there is not any cli reference)

Other question: A time ago, doing some test I flaged a 25 fps stream as 29.97 (or vice versa, I don't remember now). Played in my SAP it showed ok. I think I only flaged fps and not resolution, but don't remember that also.
I did use DVDPatcher.
The question is:
Is flaging with DVDPatcher a similar method than DGPulldown?

And last one: We can use classic pulldown.exe to do same as DGPulldown, related to system change? If not, explain this point please.

Edited: Nevermind last question. I have read the answer in a previous post.

Guest · 30th July 2005, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodater64

Is there a working old cli version?

There's no CLI version with full features. You're going to have to be patient.

Quote:

I did use DVDPatcher. The question is: Is flagging with DVDPatcher a similar method than DGPulldown?

I'm not familiar with DVDPatcher but I would guess not, otherwise someone would have mentioned it a long time ago.

Quote:

And last one: We can use classic pulldown.exe to do same as DGPulldown, related to system change? If not, explain this point please.

pulldown.exe can do standard 3:2 pulldown (23.976 -> 29.97) only.

Don

MegadetH · 31st July 2005, 18:25

I use a program called DIVX to DVD Converter,and i have some divx videos that are Pal format i just drop them into this program select force NTSC, and it coverts every time successfully, and you can allso drop VOB files in it but I havent tried this yet but i have droped a VOB file to it just to see if it would read it i will try and convert PAL to NTSC here shortly, but it will convert a PAL Divx vid. to NTSC DVD so i would convert the PAL DVD to DIvx then back to NTSC DVD.

Guest · 31st July 2005, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegadetH

I use a program called DIVX to DVD Converter,and i have some divx videos that are Pal format i just drop them into this program select force NTSC, and it coverts every time successfully

Yes, but the question is whether it does this by using flagging or by duplicating frames. If you could supply a short VOB fragment from the output of this program, I could determine the answer to that question.

MegadetH · 31st July 2005, 19:47

Ok how do I supply you with a fragment?

DaveTv · 31st July 2005, 19:53

I really like this program.........the results of my conversions are fantastic.

If you don't mind a suggestion or two...

1.) Allow file to be dragged onto the gui, for loading.

2.) Allow a different destination.

Thanks.

Guest · 1st August 2005, 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegadetH

Ok how do I supply you with a fragment?

You chop the front of the VOB using ChopperXP and then you upload it to my FTP site and tell me the filename. 50-100 MBytes will be enough.

Prodater64 · 2nd August 2005, 07:47

DGPD_PAL2NTSC by Prodater64

At the moment, and don't know for how many time, Donald Graft won't give CLI support to DGPulldown.
As 25 to 29.97 pulldown is very interesting and it would solve many problems with sync issues, I wrote a little app that gives CLI (or parsing parameter) support to DGPulldown. It means if you parse 25fps video stream name as parameter, DGPulldown will do its job and you will obtain a 29.97 flagged video stream. You can use it with original audio without change it.
You need DGPulldown.exe and DGPD.exe the litte app I wrote. There is also a DGPD.bat file that only is an example of how to call DGPD.exe.
All files should be in same folder.

Edited:

Udated.
See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98209

zoinbergs · 21st September 2006, 19:53

First of all.. I'd like to say THANK YOU for the development of this program... it sure is fun to use!

I do have one question though.........

Is there any way to use this irregular flagging technology with an actual MPEG2 Encoder to physically insert the additional interlaced frames?

I'm not so much concerned about the increased file sizes I would be creating, as I am with utmost compatibility with stand-alone players / TVs. If the frames were physically there, instead of just the flags to create the frames, then 100% compatibility would ensue, and no DVD players playing my content would have to pull down anything.

I believe TMPGEnc duplicates every fifth frame to achieve 25 --> 29.97 fps, but I'm looking for a smoother transcoding procedure that something like DGPulldown's flags are creating. (But not physically creating -- which is what I want to do).

Pure and authentic 29.97 fps video, with no flags whatsoever in it, would certainly help in my search for ultimate DVD compatibility.

Any help on this subject is quite appreciated!!!!!!!!

Thank You,
William

PS- Another quick question.. where the heck does 25fps (truly) interlaced video come from? I mean, 29.97fps interlaced video usually comes from FILM that is 3:2 from 23.976fps.. but I always thought 25fps was PAL's progressive -- kinda like the US with it's 23.976 NTSC progressive. I don't believe I've ever seen 23.976fps interlaced (unless of course each frame is split into two identical fields). Could this 25fps interlaced be a pulldown from 23.976 to allow the playing of FILM on a PAL disc?

Thank you so much for any insight you may be able to provide!!!!!!!!

Wilbert · 21st September 2006, 21:20

Quote:

PS- Another quick question.. where the heck does 25fps (truly) interlaced video come from?

Sports for example. Yes, movies are usually progressive.

SeeMoreDigital · 21st September 2006, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoinbergs

PS- Another quick question.. where the heck does 25fps (truly) interlaced video come from?

Count yourself lucky you don't live in the UK then.... As all std-def DVB TV is broadcast as "interlaced"

Guest · 21st September 2006, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoinbergs

Is there any way to use this irregular flagging technology with an actual MPEG2 Encoder to physically insert the additional interlaced frames?

If the video is already in MPEG2 then you can flag the M2V elementary stream as required using DGPulldown. Then load the M2V into DGIndex and make a project with Honor Pulldown Flags. Then serve the video into your encoder and encode in interlaced mode. For non-MPEG2, you can use this method:

bob
changefps(59.94) # for 25fps -> 29.97fps
separatefields
selectevery(4,0,3)
weave

Quote:

I'm not so much concerned about the increased file sizes I would be creating, as I am with utmost compatibility with stand-alone players / TVs. If the frames were physically there, instead of just the flags to create the frames, then 100% compatibility would ensue, and no DVD players playing my content would have to pull down anything.

This concern of yours is overblown, IMHO. I am not aware of any player that doesn't properly honor DGPulldown'ed streams. It is perfectly ordinary and legal MPEG2 syntax.

Quote:

PS- Another quick question.. where the heck does 25fps (truly) interlaced video come from?

From 50 fields/sec video cameras used in PAL countries.

Quote:

I mean, 29.97fps interlaced video usually comes from FILM that is 3:2 from 23.976fps..

No, that is not interlaced content; it is telecined content.

You need to distinguish the nature of the content from the final analog signal that goes to an interlaced display. At the display everything is "interlaced"; but the content may not be.

zoinbergs · 22nd September 2006, 02:32

Thank you, thank you, thank you neuron2!

Your wisdom is very much appreciated!

I was quite skeptical about keeping the flags, but I'll trust your word that it is indeed legal MPEG2 syntax. Believe me, I did NOT want to re-encode all this PAL material I have!

And yes, you're correct.. there is a big difference between telecined and interlaced content. I guess I have to wonder now instead... is true 29.97fps interlaced content twice as smooth as 29.97fps progressive? Because in essence there'd be twice the movement (like in a pan for instance).. moving from one field to the next? Would there be 59.94 individual (non-identical) fields, or is the bottom field for one frame the same (camera shot) as the top field for the next frame?

Sorry if that sounds confusing.. I just have some interlaced content here that doesn't look like it came from a progressive source (so it's not telecined).. but rather from some other source... I presume from an interlaced video camera. Every single frame shows one (top) field from the previous frame, and one (bottom) field from the next one. Does that make any sense?

Oh wait a second! I think I got it.. if both fields for each frame were from the same camera shot, then it'd be progressive, right? Even if it's encoded as interlaced it'd still show no horizontal lines that (true) interlaced content shows. So what I have is simply put, interlaced content! Still 29.97 frames.. but divided into fields that are split between those frames. Right?

I've read over and over again what interlaced content is.. but my mind just can't wrap itself around it (yet).

Hopefully I just answered my own question here though!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I hate to ask now.. (because I don't want to feel like I'm milking you guys for answers).. but I have just one more question.

I have a progressive NTSC video stream at 29.97fps that has clearly been converted by someone else from a PAL source at 25fps. I know this because every fifth frame has been phyiscally duplicated.

So is there any way to undo this conversion so I can add DGPulldown's flags to it.. so I can make a smoother video in the end?

I hope there's an easy answer to this one.. but if there isn't.. don't bother spending too much time on it! It's only a question..

I tried using TMPGEnc to do the trick, and ended up with 3 unique frames and a duplicated one! Every fourth frame was deleted.. when the fifth frame was supposed to. Boy does it look funny though!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you so very much guys for all your support! Hopefully I can be as knowledgable on this stuff as you are.. so I may someday be the one to answer people's questions.. thus giving you a break from doing it. =)

"You can give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Or you can teach a man to fish, and watch him drink beer in a boat all day."

Guest · 22nd September 2006, 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoinbergs

I guess I have to wonder now instead... is true 29.97fps interlaced content twice as smooth as 29.97fps progressive?

Temporally, yes.

Quote:

Would there be 59.94 individual (non-identical) fields

Yes. Each field is sampled at a different temporal moment. The moments are defined by the field frequency.

Quote:

Sorry if that sounds confusing.. I just have some interlaced content here that doesn't look like it came from a progressive source (so it's not telecined).. but rather from some other source... I presume from an interlaced video camera. Every single frame shows one (top) field from the previous frame, and one (bottom) field from the next one. Does that make any sense?

Once you know a simple notation, it's easy to describe these things. I use a letter to indicate a temporal moment, so a and b are two different moments. Also, use [] to denote frame boundaries. The first letter in [] is the top field and the second is bottom. Then, this is interlaced:

[ab][cd][ef]...

This is progressive:

[aa][bb][cc][dd]...

This is progressive with a one-field phase shift:

[.a][ab][bc][cd]...

This is 3:2 telecine:

[aa][ab][bc][cc][dd]...

You can also have blended fields:

[a a+b][b+c c] (and many variants thereof)

Quote:

Oh wait a second! I think I got it.. if both fields for each frame were from the same camera shot, then it'd be progressive, right?

Yes, but it could be shifted (see above).

What pattern are you seeing in the above notation? Look at a scene with constant motion.

Quote:

I have a progressive NTSC video stream at 29.97fps that has clearly been converted by someone else from a PAL source at 25fps. I know this because every fifth frame has been phyiscally duplicated.

So is there any way to undo this conversion so I can add DGPulldown's flags to it.. so I can make a smoother video in the end?

Sure. Do this:

Telecide() # You can omit this if there are no field shifts
FDecimate(25)

Now you encode progressive MPEG2 at 25fps and then apply DGPulldown. The result will not actually be smoother because you haven't added any new temporal information, but it will have less "judder" and that is perceived as smoother.

zoinbergs · 22nd September 2006, 06:47

Ooh, that's some juicy information man! Thank you!

I believe I was viewing some progressive shifted video running at [.a][ab][bc][cd]...

I believe Telecide() would shift it back, correct? Or would there need to be a parameter to insert in those there parenthesis?

I think I'm gettin the hang of this stuff! Who knew video could be so difficult to work with though...

26th July 2005, 01:59	#403 \| Link
Prodater64 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 266	@neuron2: Despite you mentioned command line reference is in the text file, I can' find out that reference. Could you post it here, please? __________________ Prodater64

29th July 2005, 22:47	#405 \| Link
Guest Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 21,901	DGPulldown started out in life as a command line tool but it evolved into a GUI and command line support was lost. I'll keep that and the other suggestions in mind for a rainy day. Last edited by Guest; 29th July 2005 at 22:57.

31st July 2005, 18:25	#408 \| Link
MegadetH Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Divx to DVD I use a program called DIVX to DVD Converter,and i have some divx videos that are Pal format i just drop them into this program select force NTSC, and it coverts every time successfully, and you can allso drop VOB files in it but I havent tried this yet but i have droped a VOB file to it just to see if it would read it i will try and convert PAL to NTSC here shortly, but it will convert a PAL Divx vid. to NTSC DVD so i would convert the PAL DVD to DIvx then back to NTSC DVD. Last edited by MegadetH; 31st July 2005 at 18:28.

2nd August 2005, 07:47	#413 \| Link
Prodater64 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 266	DGPD_PAL2NTSC by Prodater64 At the moment, and don't know for how many time, Donald Graft won't give CLI support to DGPulldown. As 25 to 29.97 pulldown is very interesting and it would solve many problems with sync issues, I wrote a little app that gives CLI (or parsing parameter) support to DGPulldown. It means if you parse 25fps video stream name as parameter, DGPulldown will do its job and you will obtain a 29.97 flagged video stream. You can use it with original audio without change it. You need DGPulldown.exe and DGPD.exe the litte app I wrote. There is also a DGPD.bat file that only is an example of how to call DGPD.exe. All files should be in same folder. Edited: Udated. See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98209 __________________ Prodater64 Last edited by Prodater64; 4th August 2005 at 00:05.

30th June 2005, 02:17	#401 \| Link
Guest Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 21,901	It can only repeat fields. You can't do that conversion with DGPulldown.

8th July 2005, 14:41	#402 \| Link
Xesdeeni Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 467	Just a word of thanks for the utility. I've used it a few times, but it really shines in my latest project. I have some PAL DiVX files I'm converting to DVD. They are a series of 13 45-minute shows at 640x360 16:9 resolution. Two shows per DVDR would mean 6 Mbps for the video, which would be pretty good quality. But I really didn't want 7 DVDs. Four shows per DVDR would mean 3 Mbps for the video. My experience is that MPEG-2 doesn't do so good with 3 Mbps, but that was doing mostly noisy, interlaced sources. So I thought I'd just give it a try with progressive frames and DGPulldown. I used a very good MPEG encoder and multi-pass, and the results are FANTASTIC! Even on my 65" screen, there really isn't much degradation from the already reduced DiVX quality. I attribute this to being able to encode progressive frames and avoiding the 17% extra overhead of field repetition. So thanks for taking my idea and running with it. It works great! Two and a half suggestions though: 1. I'm guessing it would be faster to convert if the source and destination could be on different drives. But you can't choose the destination. 1.5. It looks like the files are exactly the same size before and after. Is it possible to modify them in place without copying them? 2. A batch or CLI method would be nice, since I have to convert multiple files after encoding. Xesdeeni

31st July 2005, 19:47	#410 \| Link
MegadetH Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Ok how do I supply you with a fragment?

31st July 2005, 19:53	#411 \| Link
DaveTv Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3	I really like this program.........the results of my conversions are fantastic. If you don't mind a suggestion or two... 1.) Allow file to be dragged onto the gui, for loading. 2.) Allow a different destination. Thanks.

21st September 2006, 19:53	#414 \| Link
zoinbergs Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 56	First of all.. I'd like to say THANK YOU for the development of this program... it sure is fun to use! I do have one question though......... Is there any way to use this irregular flagging technology with an actual MPEG2 Encoder to physically insert the additional interlaced frames? I'm not so much concerned about the increased file sizes I would be creating, as I am with utmost compatibility with stand-alone players / TVs. If the frames were physically there, instead of just the flags to create the frames, then 100% compatibility would ensue, and no DVD players playing my content would have to pull down anything. I believe TMPGEnc duplicates every fifth frame to achieve 25 --> 29.97 fps, but I'm looking for a smoother transcoding procedure that something like DGPulldown's flags are creating. (But not physically creating -- which is what I want to do). Pure and authentic 29.97 fps video, with no flags whatsoever in it, would certainly help in my search for ultimate DVD compatibility. Any help on this subject is quite appreciated!!!!!!!! Thank You, William PS- Another quick question.. where the heck does 25fps (truly) interlaced video come from? I mean, 29.97fps interlaced video usually comes from FILM that is 3:2 from 23.976fps.. but I always thought 25fps was PAL's progressive -- kinda like the US with it's 23.976 NTSC progressive. I don't believe I've ever seen 23.976fps interlaced (unless of course each frame is split into two identical fields). Could this 25fps interlaced be a pulldown from 23.976 to allow the playing of FILM on a PAL disc? Thank you so much for any insight you may be able to provide!!!!!!!!

22nd September 2006, 02:32	#418 \| Link
zoinbergs Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 56	Thank you, thank you, thank you neuron2! Your wisdom is very much appreciated! I was quite skeptical about keeping the flags, but I'll trust your word that it is indeed legal MPEG2 syntax. Believe me, I did NOT want to re-encode all this PAL material I have! And yes, you're correct.. there is a big difference between telecined and interlaced content. I guess I have to wonder now instead... is true 29.97fps interlaced content twice as smooth as 29.97fps progressive? Because in essence there'd be twice the movement (like in a pan for instance).. moving from one field to the next? Would there be 59.94 individual (non-identical) fields, or is the bottom field for one frame the same (camera shot) as the top field for the next frame? Sorry if that sounds confusing.. I just have some interlaced content here that doesn't look like it came from a progressive source (so it's not telecined).. but rather from some other source... I presume from an interlaced video camera. Every single frame shows one (top) field from the previous frame, and one (bottom) field from the next one. Does that make any sense? Oh wait a second! I think I got it.. if both fields for each frame were from the same camera shot, then it'd be progressive, right? Even if it's encoded as interlaced it'd still show no horizontal lines that (true) interlaced content shows. So what I have is simply put, interlaced content! Still 29.97 frames.. but divided into fields that are split between those frames. Right? I've read over and over again what interlaced content is.. but my mind just can't wrap itself around it (yet). Hopefully I just answered my own question here though! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I hate to ask now.. (because I don't want to feel like I'm milking you guys for answers).. but I have just one more question. I have a progressive NTSC video stream at 29.97fps that has clearly been converted by someone else from a PAL source at 25fps. I know this because every fifth frame has been phyiscally duplicated. So is there any way to undo this conversion so I can add DGPulldown's flags to it.. so I can make a smoother video in the end? I hope there's an easy answer to this one.. but if there isn't.. don't bother spending too much time on it! It's only a question.. I tried using TMPGEnc to do the trick, and ended up with 3 unique frames and a duplicated one! Every fourth frame was deleted.. when the fifth frame was supposed to. Boy does it look funny though! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thank you so very much guys for all your support! Hopefully I can be as knowledgable on this stuff as you are.. so I may someday be the one to answer people's questions.. thus giving you a break from doing it. =) "You can give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Or you can teach a man to fish, and watch him drink beer in a boat all day."

22nd September 2006, 06:47	#420 \| Link
zoinbergs Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 56	Ooh, that's some juicy information man! Thank you! I believe I was viewing some progressive shifted video running at [.a][ab][bc][cd]... I believe Telecide() would shift it back, correct? Or would there need to be a parameter to insert in those there parenthesis? I think I'm gettin the hang of this stuff! Who knew video could be so difficult to work with though...