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Old 17th May 2009, 01:16   #1041  |  Link
wayland
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mpc-hc does that.

about the nvidia question i asked changing from rgb to YCbCr444 fixes it
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Old 17th May 2009, 02:23   #1042  |  Link
Hypernova
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Refresh rate is correct. Upload queue is ~4-5/8. Render queue is ~7-8/8. But I can't get any smooth playback if my setting is anything beyond Bilinear/Bilinear when go fullscreen (2560x1600). Drop and delayed frame also keep on incresing. Maybe I did something wrong?
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Old 17th May 2009, 02:31   #1043  |  Link
cyberbeing
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It seems much smoother now, which is good, but it's unstable. I've had at least 10 random lockups of the renderer in the last hour, when doing things like pausing, seeking, and going from fullscreen <-> windowed. If you don't mess with it, it seems fine though.

Pausing the video and going to fullscreen seems to lockup the renderer every time. It goes to fullscreen with the screen black, displays what I assume was in the frame cache, the screen goes black again, and the renderer locks-up.

There is a randomly occurring issue when it get the end of the file. Sometimes it will exit fullscreen, display a black frame, and then playback the last half-second (emptying the frame cache?).

Moving the video window around with MPC-HC results in massive flickering and tearing.

Considerable dropped/delayed frames when first opening the file and when switching from fullscreen <-> windowed.

For some reason I occasionally get delayed frames (the render queue fluxuates between 7/8 and 8/8) when I downscale a 1920x1080 video to 1600x900 (1600x1200 display res). When upscaling, I don't have this problem.

It's also not remembering luma scaling settings:


The good news is that the sample I uploaded a 3 weeks ago, as well as pretty much everything else I tried, now seems to playback nice and smooth with 0.10.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 17th May 2009 at 02:38.
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Old 17th May 2009, 04:00   #1044  |  Link
Egh
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Epically superior build!!!!


Believe it or nuts, but you [almost] solved the secondary monitor problem! Now it doesn't max one of the cores, keeps it at half (i.e. tends to be around 50%) on one of the cores! That said, however, there's still substantial increase when moving MPCHC window to a different monitor. Increase happens on one core only so there's still something lurking in the code. But generally for 720p here I can even move the window and still have good CPU rates.


That is still pales in comparison to the CPU usage. What did you do?!!! It now runs on primary monitor with just half of the previous CPU load!!!
Using lanczos4&softcubic50 I can achieve just less than 20% cpu typical usage. That is on 720p avc content slightly downscaled (so shader math still works).
It is indeed too early to compare HR and mVR directly, as mVR doesnt' do subs yet, but I expect it to be on par regarding CPU usage. So unsubbed 720p content seems to take about same CPU amount. And that with HR using bicubic and mVR using lanc4 & softcubic.

Now of course the bugs ))

a. Chroma upscaling setting is not remembered.
b. Ugly when moving window around, video is flickering ( blank black area clearly seen and then video).
c. Even more annoying -- in fullscreen mode it flickers (again showing blank black frame and then back to video) when moving cursor to the control bar below.
It flickers twice -- first when opening the bar and when closing it.
d. Each change of upscale method leads to quite serious amount of dropped frames. Chroma and the other luma upscaling methods typically cause 3-5 frames loss, whilst active method change may, seemingly randomly, cause a loss between 10 and (record value) 40 frames. These values are from same video (i.e. even on same video the number of dropped frames is unpredictable). And yes, you got it right -- even if luma downscaling is used, when I change chroma upscale method it still drops several frames.

Other than that, still wonderful achievement! Personally, only feature that prevents me to switch over to mVR from HR is the subs
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Old 17th May 2009, 04:49   #1045  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egh View Post
It is indeed too early to compare HR and mVR directly, as mVR doesnt' do subs yet, but I expect it to be on par regarding CPU usage.
Which subtitle renderer(s) aren't working with madVR?

Why don't you use VSFilter? It works perfectly with every madVR revision.
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Old 17th May 2009, 05:59   #1046  |  Link
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Quote:
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Which subtitle renderer(s) aren't working with madVR?

Why don't you use VSFilter? It works perfectly with every madVR revision.
MPC sub renderer is the best Especially if you upscale video on playback.

As for internal subtitle mechanics, I'm not sure. Renderers (such as Haali's one) have a subtitle pin. As MPC renders in some user selected resolution (I personally use 1280x1024), I guess it is renderer's job to up/down scale the subtitle texture and blend it with the video. Using some filter in-between is a flexible but not optimal approach, imo.
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Old 17th May 2009, 06:34   #1047  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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I think I have found a bug.

I'm using Zoomplayer and when running MadVR my monitors turn off (screensaver settings). When running any other renderer all is well.


Can anyone else verify this?
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Old 17th May 2009, 07:17   #1048  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
What player Thunderbolt?
mpc-hc
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Old 17th May 2009, 07:59   #1049  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayland View Post
how do you open the detailed osd in 0.10? ctrl+j twice doesnt seem to do it any more.
There is only one OSD in 0.10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayland View Post
also going a bit off topic but how should the dynamic range be set on nvidia hardware full(0-255) or limited (16-235)? either seems to result in a differant image with madvr and HR compared to evr custom
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayland View Post
about the nvidia question i asked changing from rgb to YCbCr444 fixes it
If you do that, the graphics card will apply processing on madVR's output, which is what we usually don't want. Furthermore, if the image looks different that way, your GPU is probably doing something wrong. Cause madVR's output is how it's supposed to look. I'd guess that your EVR Custom image quality is all wrong. However, there's a chance, albeit very low, that your display doesn't handle RGB input correctly and needs YCbCr input. But I really doubt that's the case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by honai View Post
Tested it again on the Iron Man BD w/ the 4770, refresh rate was correctly detected at 60.00071 Hz (and stayed there for the whole 250s I tested), decoder queue 16/16 fixed, upload queue 4/8 fixed, render queue 8/8 fixed, 10 dropped frames, 2 delayed, all during first few seconds. Playback "feels" almost perfectly smooth, the very tiny stuttering could also be the effect of 23.976@60Hz playback. Feels definitely as smooth as the best iteration of Beliyaal's EVR CP.
Good to hear. For me EVR CP is not perfectly smooth, either. I guess my PC is just not up to the task in windowed mode. But the good thing is that on my PC madVR seems to be as smooth as EVR CP now, too, just like on your PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by honai View Post
One tiny request: Could you make the OSD position toggle between the top and bottom? Might come in handy for us plasma users.
Maybe later. There are so many very important things that still need to be done. So I don't really want to spend time on doing things like moveable OSD right now when more important things are still on the to do list...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Madshi, this new version, well...


YEA HAR!!


display 95.90368Hz (397s) perfect, time just keeps growing
movie fps 23.976fps (says source filter)
decoder queue 16/16
upload queue 4/8
render queue 8/8
movie res 1920,1080
target rectangle 0,0,1920,1080
v sync interval 10.43ms
movie frame interval 41.71ms
dropped frames 3 Just from startup, stable after that
delayed frames 3 Just from startup, stable after that

Playback is smooth, so far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Was it the interlaced res that causes the scanline reporting issue?
I don't think so. madVR asks the GPU about which scanline is currently being drawn. The allowed numbers (according to Microsoft documentation) are between 0 and the height of the graphics mode you're using. So if your GPU is set to 1080p, your GPU may return scanline numbers between 0 and 1080. However, I got scanlines reported like 1116. That confused my display refresh rate calculation formulas. This looks like a simple bug in the graphics driver to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
A small feature request: A tearing/smoothness test. Using Zoomplayer, with Reclock "bypassed", I have no tearing bar test, which is very handy for checking issues.
Yeah, would make sense. But just as the moveable OSD position I have to say that there are simply more important things that need to be done first.

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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
And that raises the Reclock issue...are you using Reclock? If so, what settings? Active or bypassed? If not, will Reclock bypassed, just a WASAPI renderer, cause any issues? It doesn't seem to.
Currently I'm not using ReClock, but I might use it soon due to WASAPI rendering.

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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
I'm slightly concerned about the need for Fullscreen Exclusive for "perfect" playback. I understand why (I think), but it's a bit clunky - and there goes the UI on Zoomplayer.
Well, if you have perfectly smooth playback in windowed mode then just use that. Maybe faster PCs can do that.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
just to nitpick, does it have to be 0.10 or 1.0? 10 comes after 9, yes, but just from the looks after 0.9 I'd expect to get 1.0. I'd rather say that 0.10 follows after 0.09 :P
I thought about going 1.0. After all smooth playback is a BIG thing. But 1.0 is supposed to be a stable build where all important features are implemented - and madVR is not there yet. So I decided to go 0.10. Yeah, so I should have started with 0.01. Well, there are more important things than version numbers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Refresh rate is correct. Upload queue is ~4-5/8. Render queue is ~7-8/8. But I can't get any smooth playback if my setting is anything beyond Bilinear/Bilinear when go fullscreen (2560x1600). Drop and delayed frame also keep on incresing. Maybe I did something wrong?
I don't think you did anything wrong. I'm not totally sure why some PCs seemingly can do smooth playback without any hiccups in windowed mode while other PCs can't. On my PC my logs are telling me that sometimes the PC is busy doing "something" (I don't know what) and so madVR is not getting any processing time for sometimes 30ms at a time. In such a situation there's no way to avoid a delayed or even dropped frame. Probably it's the same cause for you. You could try minimizing the amount of processes and services running on your PC that might interfere. Maybe that helps. You could also try reducing that output resolution a bit. 2560x1600 is quite taxing on the hardware, of course. Although your upload and render queues do look fine, so your GPU seems to be up to the task... I can only hope that fullscreen exclusive mode will fix the remaining non-smooth problems on your PC - and mine. Although I'll get a new HTPC early next week. So maybe my problems will be gone by then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
It seems much smoother now, which is good, but it's unstable. I've had at least 10 random lockups of the renderer in the last hour, when doing things like pausing, seeking, and going from fullscreen <-> windowed. If you don't mess with it, it seems fine though.
Yeah, exactly what I wrote in the release notes...

Of course I could have waited with releasing madVR 0.10 until it's completely stable. But that would have meant that you guys would have had to wait another 1-2 weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Pausing the video and going to fullscreen seems to lockup the renderer every time. It goes to fullscreen with the screen black, displays what I assume was in the frame cache, the screen goes black again, and the renderer locks-up.

There is a randomly occurring issue when it get the end of the file. Sometimes it will exit fullscreen, display a black frame, and then playback the last half-second (emptying the frame cache?).

Moving the video window around with MPC-HC results in massive flickering and tearing.
Ok, thanks, will look into that (next week).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
For some reason I occasionally get delayed frames (the render queue fluxuates between 7/8 and 8/8) when I downscale a 1920x1080 video to 1600x900 (1600x1200 display res). When upscaling, I don't have this problem.
The render queue fluctuating between 7/8 and 8/8 is perfectly fine. It may go down to 4/8 without having to worry. Lower values than 4/8 might be dangerous for smooth motion, though. And of course the "delayed frames" number in the OSD increasing throughout the whole movie is bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
It's also not remembering luma scaling settings
Ouch, true.

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Originally Posted by Egh View Post
Epically superior build!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Egh View Post
Believe it or nuts, but you [almost] solved the secondary monitor problem! Now it doesn't max one of the cores, keeps it at half (i.e. tends to be around 50%) on one of the cores! That said, however, there's still substantial increase when moving MPCHC window to a different monitor. Increase happens on one core only so there's still something lurking in the code. But generally for 720p here I can even move the window and still have good CPU rates.
Moving the window to another monitor while the playback is already running is not supported yet. Currently in order to get the best results you have to move MPC HC to the right monitor first and only then load the movie file and start playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egh View Post
That is still pales in comparison to the CPU usage. What did you do?!!! It now runs on primary monitor with just half of the previous CPU load!!!
Using lanczos4&softcubic50 I can achieve just less than 20% cpu typical usage. That is on 720p avc content slightly downscaled (so shader math still works).
It is indeed too early to compare HR and mVR directly, as mVR doesnt' do subs yet, but I expect it to be on par regarding CPU usage.
Yeah. Seems like redoing the presentation logic did the trick with CPU usage. I always said that madVR was not supposed to consume (much) more CPU than the other renderers. For me madVR 0.10 consumes slightly more than EVR-CP, but really only slightly more. CPU consumption got down quite a bit compared to 0.9. Maybe I should have added that to the changelog...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egh View Post
a. Chroma upscaling setting is not remembered.
b. Ugly when moving window around, video is flickering ( blank black area clearly seen and then video).
c. Even more annoying -- in fullscreen mode it flickers (again showing blank black frame and then back to video) when moving cursor to the control bar below.
It flickers twice -- first when opening the bar and when closing it.
Yeah, that are all things I need to work on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egh View Post
d. Each change of upscale method leads to quite serious amount of dropped frames.
Not nice. But I don't really know if I will spend much time to improve that. After all you usually won't change these settings in the middle of watching a movie. One of the reasons for the dropped/delayed frames when changing settings is that madVR clears the rendering queue to make sure that the changed settings show effect immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
I'm using Zoomplayer and when running MadVR my monitors turn off (screensaver settings). When running any other renderer all is well.
So basically I need to stop screensavers from appearing, right?
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Old 17th May 2009, 08:04   #1050  |  Link
Hypernova
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After more observation. It looks like nothing can be done except getting a new card . If I restrict the video size to 1080p, then I can get smooth playback up to SoftCubic, but not Lanczos/Spline. Upload/render quite always looks ok (5/8 8/8) even if I use Lanczos/Spline on fullscreen(2560x1600), but it skip like crazy. This sounds like a useless report (even to me) but I do want to let you know that it does not show any improvement over other revision. The upside of this revision is that I can't distinguish the result of each scaling method (except nearest neighbor) for some reasons.

Anyway, I can live with Bilinear for now. Great job Madshi . I'm looking forward to subtitle support too.

EDIT: I was typing when you post. I'll definitely try what you suggest and report back on any improvement.
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Last edited by Hypernova; 17th May 2009 at 08:07.
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Old 17th May 2009, 09:01   #1051  |  Link
Egh
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After all you usually won't change these settings in the middle of watching a movie. One of the reasons for the dropped/delayed frames when changing settings is that madVR clears the rendering queue to make sure that the changed settings show effect immediately.
Now I see why it drops more frames in the middle of the movie compared to renderer initialisation (typically around 10 for the movie start)
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Old 17th May 2009, 10:31   #1052  |  Link
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I don't think so. madVR asks the GPU about which scanline is currently being drawn. The allowed numbers (according to Microsoft documentation) are between 0 and the height of the graphics mode you're using. So if your GPU is set to 1080p, your GPU may return scanline numbers between 0 and 1080. However, I got scanlines reported like 1116. That confused my display refresh rate calculation formulas. This looks like a simple bug in the graphics driver to me.
Maybe Microsoft is counting front porch, back porch and sync width lines too ? 1080p is 1125 lines that way (you can see this at my screenshots over at the EnTechTaiwan-4770 Thread) - 1116 would be inside that number.

Btw great to see this release - i will try to test it today.
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Old 17th May 2009, 10:34   #1053  |  Link
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@madshi

madVR 0.10 works well in continuous playback if we do not talk about trick play actions. Now It provides smoothy motion visual experience with the Lanczos4 setting on my system. (E6750, XP, 8800GTS/320) The 24Mbps streaming playback through the GBE network looks quite ok, too.

Different types of 23.976 progressive and 29.97 fps interlaced MPEG2 / MPEG4 / H.264 contents have been tried. It is observed that madVR 0.10 can provide identical smoothy motion visual effect as EVR-CP on my Hitachi PDP TV. I will try to play PAL DVD contents (576i50) to 1080p60 output mode to see how the feeling is.

The only exception is 1024x576p60 video -> 1920x1080p60 output. Continuously tearing and dropped frames pop up about every 2 ~ 3 seconds. It is a progressive MPEG2 video content with 16.67 ms frame duration, which is the same with V-sync refresh rate in my system. The decoder queue shows "1/16". Isn't the a/v sync mechanism flexible enough for such 1:1 renderering mode? Such issue was not observed with madVR 0.8 / 0.9 and any other VR.

An 1280x1080i60 MPEG-4 ASP (interlaced) clip was tested with Xvid 1.2 decoder. Although madVR cannot grab any frame rate info from source filter, the playback is still very smoothy. This is the same with ver 0.8 ~ 0.10.

How do you apply the change of output window dimension? I am curious how it produces these new issues with the version 0.10's implemention.
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Old 17th May 2009, 10:40   #1054  |  Link
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just encountered a problem, I get constantly dropped & delayed frames and a massive stuttering picture during playback with 720p 60i mpeg2 files (no matter if .ts or remuxed to .mkv), maybe because in this case vcsync invertall is 16.66ms while movie intervall is 16.68ms (upload queue 5-7/8 (but once for example also dropped to 3/8 shortly), render queue 5-8/8)

seems like this appears only to be that way in fullscreen mode though, looks allright in window mode

Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 17th May 2009 at 10:45.
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Old 17th May 2009, 10:40   #1055  |  Link
FoLLgoTT
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@madshi
When I open a DVD in ZP or MPC I get a message box with "Query unknown PropSet" and after tat the usual macrovision error.
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Old 17th May 2009, 11:07   #1056  |  Link
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is it possible to compare pictures with madVR and dxva?


because i can't make pictures with mpc-hc & madVR, there is always an error message.
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Old 17th May 2009, 11:15   #1057  |  Link
Grmpf
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Just use "Print Screen" on your Keyboard and Paste it into your favorite imaging tool (even Windows Paint will work) and voilą you can save your screenshot !
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Old 17th May 2009, 11:25   #1058  |  Link
Steveo08
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Just use "Print Screen" on your Keyboard and Paste it into your favorite imaging tool (even Windows Paint will work) and voilą you can save your screenshot !


thank you, that's a good idea :-)
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Old 17th May 2009, 12:17   #1059  |  Link
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With 0.10 I have big performances issues with my 8600 GTS. I need now to disable 3Dlut and turn on at least one performance option if I don't want have a horrible stutter with tons of dropped and delayed frames. I could use the top quality settings with earlier versions.

I wonder if this has to do with the fact I play move a 23.976fps movie on a 72Hz screen, maybe It will better on a 24Hz screen.

On a side note, I am not sure that the stats are completely reliable as it sometime it is quite obvious there are some frame drops even if it is not reported.
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Old 17th May 2009, 13:35   #1060  |  Link
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Ok, I just watched a movie.

I didn't check at the start, but at the end I have 54 dropped frames and 27 delayed frames.

Normally at startup I get less than 10 of each (3ish, usually it seems).


There were two or three very obvious big glitches, but it was otherwise smooth.
This is similar to Beliyaal's MPC EVR custom actually (not in exclusive fullscreen), but they were less drastic.

Reclock was in the filter path, but "disabled". I'll set Reclock to it's normal settings for the next movie, and the one after that I'll try disabled again.


My CPU is a Q6600 at 3hz, there's heaps of overhead - I'm only using 30% CPU. I do have my harddrives set to spin down after 25 mins, I'll disable that.


And Madshi, the screensaver/powersaver behaviour is odd. ZoomPlayer sitting doing nothing will disable windows screensaver/powersaving - it'll sit there forever with the monitors on. But playing with MadVR and the monitors turn off after 5 mins - which is instead of a screensaver for me, monitors turn off after 5 mins and it goes into standby after 15 mins.


And I have seen a few stutters which didn't cause the dropped frames or delayed frames numbers to change - while playing around just now.
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