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Old 9th February 2011, 18:53   #81  |  Link
Ghitulescu
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I'll give you the links and you'll buy the articles, around 2-3€ per article AFAIK.
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Old 9th February 2011, 21:10   #82  |  Link
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.....but as I don't intend to indulge the copyright excuse and start buying articles to determine how long they'll last....
I guess we'll continue this discussion in four or five years time....
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Old 11th February 2011, 14:28   #83  |  Link
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Ok for me, see you again on 9th February 2016.
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Old 11th February 2011, 14:48   #84  |  Link
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Ok for me, see you again on 9th February 2016.
We're going to hold you to this! And yetanotherid too!
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Old 12th February 2011, 03:33   #85  |  Link
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We're going to hold you to this! And yetanotherid too!
I figured it'd give Ghitulescu plenty of time to update is list of excuses for not answering questions.
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Old 3rd March 2011, 21:49   #86  |  Link
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I just got a new drive, and decided to scan all my old discs.
I've used Nero Speed Disc but I have no idea what to do with the results. I know that PIF rates are better the lower they are, and I know 0.08 is okay, according to some forum threads.
But that's as far as I know.

My discs PIF rating read between 0.3-0.7. Which is about 4-10x higher than what I know is okay. But how big a deal is this? Are these about ready to fail, or should they be good for a few years?

My new drive is burning the same spindle of dvds to 0.01 PIF. I'm using Verbatim media I bought off NewEgg two years ago.

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Old 3rd March 2011, 23:24   #87  |  Link
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Can you post a screen shot of an old and a new burn?
What model is your new drive (and what was the old one) and how old is your version of Nero? Not all drives report errors correctly although Nero tends to block them from running tests in newer versions of their software. For instance I can run tests with my oldest Pioneer burners as long as I use the version of Speed Disc which comes with Nero 7. The newer Pioneers burners work but the results aren't even close to accurate. Any version of Nero Speed Disc above the one which came with Nero 7 and I can't use Pioneer burners for running quality tests at all as Nero has blocked them from doing so.
Just wanting to try to confirm you're getting accurate results, although it does sound like you are.

I'd be guessing as long as the discs were stored correctly and they're not covered in scratches and fingerprints they probably haven't deteriorated as such (especially if they're Verbatim), it's probably just that the quality of burn you were getting from your old burner wasn't all that good in the first place.
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Old 4th March 2011, 09:02   #88  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wantangobi View Post
I just got a new drive, and decided to scan all my old discs.
I've used Nero Speed Disc but I have no idea what to do with the results. I know that PIF rates are better the lower they are, and I know 0.08 is okay, according to some forum threads.
But that's as far as I know.

My discs PIF rating read between 0.3-0.7. Which is about 4-10x higher than what I know is okay. But how big a deal is this? Are these about ready to fail, or should they be good for a few years?

My new drive is burning the same spindle of dvds to 0.01 PIF. I'm using Verbatim media I bought off NewEgg two years ago.
There's no such value of 0.08 or whatever in testing the DVDRs. All values are integers. Since I'm lazy to write this by hand I refer to an older post.
Code:
PIE: Parity Inner Error
PIF: Parity Inner Failure
POE: Parity Outer Error
POF: Parity Outer Failure

If a PIE cannot be corrected by the drive it counts as a PIF.
If a PIF cannot be corrected by the drive it counts as a POE.
If a POE cannot be corrected by the drive it counts as a POF (also known as a read error).

The reference values you should be looking for for each of the above errors are determined by

Standard ECMA-338 - 80 mm (1,46 Gbytes per side) and 120 mm (4,70 Gbytes per side) DVD Re-recordable Disk (DVD-RW)
Standard ECMA-337 - Data Interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm Optical Disk using +RW Format - Capacity: 4,7 and 1,46 Gbytes per
Side (Recording speed up to 4X)
Standard ECMA-349 - Data Interchange on 120 mm and 80 mm Optical Disk using +R Format - Capacity: 4,7 and 1,46 Gbytes per Side (Recording speed up to 16X)
Standard ECMA-359 - 80 mm (1,46 Gbytes per side) and 120 mm (4,70 Gbytes per side) DVD Recordable Disk (DVD-R)

In summary the above standards say -

PI (PIE) - Should be less than Maximum 280 (also suggested by others - but not included in standard - PI (PIE) Total <10,000)
PIF - Should be less than Maximum 4 (also suggested by others - but not included in standard - PIF Total <500)
Jitter should be less than 8%.

Note -
i/- The above standards state - "A row of an ECC Block that has at least 1 byte in error constitutes a PI error. In any 8 consecutive ECC Blocks the total number of PI errors before correction shall not exceed 280."
A row is 182 bytes long where the last 10 bytes contain PI (Parity Inner) information. An ECC block is 208 rows long where the last 16 rows contains the PO (Parity Outer) information.

ii/- The sampling interval (1ECC = 1 ECC row at a time or 8ECC = 8 ECC rows at a time) is based on the chipset and the software polling the chipset. Some drives allow the sampling interval to be set (i.e. NEC burners).

Philips Nexperia chipset (used in BenQ/Philips/NuTech burners) use PIE rows/8ECC, PIF rows/8ECC
Mediatek chipset (used in LiteOn burners) can be polled down to PIF rows/1ECC (and summed PIE rows/8ECC)
NEC chipset (used in NEC burners) can be set
etc.

Does 1ECC = SUM-1 as referred to in PlexTools (does 8ECC = SUM-8)?
It is true that at 8ECC the PIF Maximum is 32 instead of 4

iii/- As mentioned above, PIFs can be corrected by the drive's Parity Outer (PO) function before they become POFs/read errors. However, PIFs can increase over time so although a high number of PIFs initially may not result in poor reading, it is not a good sign as more than a maximum of 4 PIFs can cause pausing and skipping on some standalone DVD players.

iv/- The above errors/failures do not refer to errors/failures on the disc. They refer to your particular drive's inability to read the disc. i.e. a POF on may exist for one particular disc in one drive but not another.

You can test for the above errors using - CDSpeed, DVDInfoPro, Plextools (see drive compatibility list for each package to determine which one is compatible with your drive). At present none of above produce reliable results with Pioneer drives.
Now, any disk that has more than 280 PIs per 8 consecutive blocks is defective. The same for a disk with more than 4 PIFs. This is what most people test, sometimes forgetting that the measurements should be done with a certain Philips optics at 1x, not with a NEC at 16x. In addition, jitter is an extremely important factor, very often forgotten because it's not measurable with all drives, and this needs a lower scanning speed (max. 2x). Any modern DVD drive can read DVDRs with say 500 or more PIs, but will execrably fail on jitter above 9-10% (most burned disks have around 8.x-9% jitter - this is why almost all burned disks fail on industrial testing machines like the AudioDEV or CAT). Compare this with 280 to 1664, or with 4 to 32, which are the allowed/maximum values for PI/PO....
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Old 4th March 2011, 10:45   #89  |  Link
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There's no such value of 0.08 or whatever in testing the DVDRs. All values are integers.
I'll go out on a limb and guess he's quoting averages.
Nero CD Speed displays the average, maximum and total PI errors and failures for a disc.
Hopefully he'll post some screen shots of his quality tests so they can be explained in a way which might mean something to him.
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Old 4th March 2011, 11:57   #90  |  Link
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If one failure exists (POF) but no other defects, the average will be 0.0000...1, however the disk is irremediably lost, at least the part containing the error. It's no relevant at all, quite the opposite, it may give one the impression that the disk is ok. It's the distribution of the errors that is more important than the average.
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Old 4th March 2011, 13:09   #91  |  Link
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Hence my request for some screen shots.
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Old 4th March 2011, 18:19   #92  |  Link
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If Verbatim's quality has dropped, why is it I'm producing burns of the same quality today as you were getting two years ago, as long of course, you took the samples from your "premium collection"?
I don't mean to interject into a private quarrel. To make a point of fact, true Mitsubishi-made Verbatim discs (MCC MIDs) are now hard to find, and almost always carry a premium price, typically under the product line name DataLifePlus. The bulk of the Verbatim brand DVDs is now manufactured by others than Mitsubishi, even though Verbatim is a Mitsubishi brand. Non-MCC discs are definitely lower quality, and typically don't use the high-quality AZO dyes used by the true Mitsu manufacture. This digitalFAQ thread discusses the difficulty of finding MCC MID discs.

So I'd say it is true to say that Verbatim quality is lower for non-premium DVD blank discs.
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Old 5th March 2011, 01:39   #93  |  Link
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I don't mean to interject into a private quarrel. To make a point of fact, true Mitsubishi-made Verbatim discs (MCC MIDs) are now hard to find, and almost always carry a premium price, typically under the product line name DataLifePlus.
Well I can't speak for everywhere, but I'm in Australia and have never had a problem buying Mitsubishi discs. Yes, they're more expensive than discs using CMC dye, but they always have been, regardless of the brand.

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So I'd say it is true to say that Verbatim quality is lower for non-premium DVD blank discs.
No doubt it is. TDK have similar products. Their Gold series uses the CMC dye if I remember correctly. However it doesn't mean you can't still buy "premium" TDK blanks.
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Old 7th March 2011, 03:26   #94  |  Link
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Can you post a screen shot of an old and a new burn?
A new burn

Old Burn

Old Burn

Quote:
Originally Posted by yetanotherid View Post
I'd be guessing as long as the discs were stored correctly and they're not covered in scratches and fingerprints they probably haven't deteriorated as such (especially if they're Verbatim), it's probably just that the quality of burn you were getting from your old burner wasn't all that good in the first place.
I understand that. So if I have a low quality initial burn, there is no need to remake these discs?
Would they survive for say 4-5 years?
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Old 7th March 2011, 14:13   #95  |  Link
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So if I have a low quality initial burn, there is no need to remake these discs?
Would they survive for say 4-5 years?
If they're not badly treated they probably will. To be honest though, if it were me I'd burn those old ones again just to be sure, but that probably only reflects my own paranoia rather than having any relationship to whether they'll last or not.
I've got a rule of thumb that I only keep burns where the quality percentage given by Nero is 95% or higher, and I mentioned earlier in the thread I re-burned all my old discs about three years ago as most were burned using cheap blanks and/or a poor quality burner so they weren't very good quality.

I can't really give a definitive answer myself.... probably not too many people will be able to for a few years yet.... but I'll report back later after I've run some burn quality tests on some cheap media which are about 5 years old. I've got a spindle of discs in the family room where I dump all the poor quality burns for others to use. They won't have been looked after and I should be able to dig out some pre-Verbatim discs for testing.... some Ritek blanks and even some counterfeit Mitsubishi ones.... If they're still readable now, given most of them would have been pretty poor quality to begin with (and nobody has complained about any of them not playing) I'd be willing to at least bet your verbatim discs will last 4 to 5 years.
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Old 7th March 2011, 16:32   #96  |  Link
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All burns are bad. However, such bad burns like the old one, I must confess I haven't seen in my life, not even in the threads with fake media.
The new burn has POs higher than 4, but I assume the disk can be used.
A good burn here

My suggestion, get rid of the NEC burner, it's less than average in burning quality and one of the worst readers ever. I always suggest LG burners for reading purposes.
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Old 7th March 2011, 17:06   #97  |  Link
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What does the pretty list of burners represent?

NEC burner? Who's got one of those? I can't see where Wantangobi says he's got an NEC burner.
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Old 7th March 2011, 17:16   #98  |  Link
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I expected such a dumb question from someone pretending to be the expert around here.
He has an AD7260 which is manufactured by NEC and sold through the channels of the Sony-NEC-joint venture called Optiarc.
The green zone represent the ability of the burner to read damaged sectors (it includes here the "repaired" sectors), the red ones are the unreadable ones.
There is a concentration of NECs at the bottom and one of LGs at the top
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Old 7th March 2011, 18:05   #99  |  Link
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I expected such a dumb question from someone pretending to be the expert around here. He has an AD7260 which is manufactured by NEC and sold through the channels of the Sony-NEC-joint venture called Optiarc.
That's okay, I expect to be insulted by a complete fool such as yourself.

Sony Optiarc
"Sony Optiarc Inc. (formerly Sony NEC Optiarc Inc.) is a subsidiary of Sony Corporation. The company's business is the design and manufacturing of optical disk drives, primarily for the OEM desktop and notebook PC markets.
The company was established on April 3, 2006 as a joint venture between Sony and NEC Corporation, each had share of 55% and 45% respectively. On September 11, 2008, it was announced that Sony would take over NEC's 45% share, making Optiarc wholly-owned subsidiary of Sony. This took effect on December 5, 2008."

Do you really think the average person is going to understand what on earth you're talking about when you tell them to get rid of their NEC burner after they've posted quality tests of burns made by their Sony Optiarc because it contains an NEC chipset? Or because Optiarc was once-upon-a-time a Sony-NEC joint venture, back before your dementia set in and you lost track of reality?

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The green zone represent the ability of the burner to read damaged sectors (it includes here the "repaired" sectors), the red ones are the unreadable ones.
There is a concentration of NECs at the bottom and one of LGs at the top.
So where did the pretty picture come from? I hope you're not infringing someone else's copyright?
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Old 7th March 2011, 18:05   #100  |  Link
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I always suggest LG burners for reading purposes.
But does Kprobe work with LG burners? The website says Lite-On only.
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