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Old 5th December 2010, 11:36   #4981  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?
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Old 5th December 2010, 20:00   #4982  |  Link
fairchild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?
I use SoftCubic 100 for chroma upscaling

I use Spline 4 with luma upscaling and downscaling
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Old 5th December 2010, 20:17   #4983  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?
chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient

Last edited by leeperry; 5th December 2010 at 20:19.
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Old 5th December 2010, 20:36   #4984  |  Link
fairchild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient
FYI, Lanczos has more ringing than Spline. At least that's what the description in MadVR shows and that's why I switched from Lanczos to Spline.

What's LSF btw?

Edit: NM, found what LSF was. I never have really gotten into Avisynth. I figured all those extra features are mostly pointless when you are watching digital sources (such as 720p or 1080p encoded XVID/X264 videos).

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=142706
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Last edited by fairchild; 5th December 2010 at 20:52.
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Old 5th December 2010, 22:26   #4985  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
FYI, Lanczos has more ringing than Spline. At least that's what the description in MadVR shows and that's why I switched from Lanczos to Spline.
O RLY? I thought I read that the best compromise was Lanczos3...my avisynth scripting is pretty darn sharp, but OK I'll try again. I don't want to rely on a resizing algorithm to sharpen up the picture, though.

PS: yeah, spline gives more aliasing than lanczos from what mVR says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
found what LSF was. I never have really gotten into Avisynth. I figured all those extra features are mostly pointless when you are watching digital sources
LSF is such a smart algorithm that it also sharpens up the motion blur...together w/ Reclock and mVR, it's a god send

Last edited by leeperry; 5th December 2010 at 22:28.
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Old 5th December 2010, 23:21   #4986  |  Link
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Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing unless you're sources have not been encoded properly or you don't have the right setup and are sending madVR garbage. Calibration can also help with this issue as well. In addition, having the latest drivers and setting them up properly can prevent a lot of issues.
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Old 5th December 2010, 23:56   #4987  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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a question regarding bitdeph, at the front page its said that madvr supports 16-bit. but when I play HD videos on my LCD TV, then reclock (1.8.7.3) tells me 12-bit for video information. so is there some misconfiguration of my system?

radeon mobility HD 4850, catalyst 10.11,win xp prof, connected to TV via VGA-cable @1360x768, madvr 0.32, 3dlut use, video renderers and resampler of reclock bypassed.

Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 5th December 2010 at 23:58.
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Old 6th December 2010, 00:06   #4988  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
at the front page its said that madvr supports 16-bit. but when I play HD videos on my LCD TV, then reclock (1.8.7.3) tells me 12-bit for video information.
YUY2 is 16-bit per pixel, YV12 12-bit per pixel. mVR only accept YV12 input, does all the computing in 16bit and then dithers to 8bit RGB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing
alright, more tests to go then! my displays are fully calibrated using a brand new i1d2, no worries..Color.HCFR and ARGYLL ftw

PS: I upscale over my display native res in ffdshow, and then let mVR downscale in order to improve my Avisynth scripts accuracy...ffdshow only has "spline", you can't select the number of taps.

PPS: indeed, spline upscale in ffdshow and then spline3 downscale in mVR looks better I think...less noisy and more details visible apparently

Last edited by leeperry; 6th December 2010 at 01:54.
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Old 6th December 2010, 03:33   #4989  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
YUY2 is 16-bit per pixel, YV12 12-bit per pixel. mVR only accept YV12 input, does all the computing in 16bit and then dithers to 8bit RGB.
hm if madvr only accepts YV12 input, how come I could see on a reclock screenshot "23.976 fps, 1920x1080p, YUY2 16 bits" ?
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Old 6th December 2010, 03:55   #4990  |  Link
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It's hard to believe that an original->very_big->target can be any better than an original->target resize.
May be it can fool you but I think you loose some of the original information: Upscaling produces some interpolated (fake) informations. When you downscale it, you loose some informations of the big upscaled image. In an average situation, you have to loose some of the original information too (some interpolated fake information will remain while some original information will be lost).
May be it helps to sharpen or soften the image. But I think you should choose the resize algorithm according to your taste (softer or sharper result) instead of this "trick".
But this is only my theory. And, of course, you are free to do whatever you want...
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Old 6th December 2010, 10:53   #4991  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
It's hard to believe that an original->very_big->target can be any better than an original->target resize
it's called Supersampling...most Avisynth script support it natively: http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Supersampling

on LSF, it makes a pretty drastic improvement..LSF being plagued w/ jaggies at 1.0, and it's pretty sweet to have the last downscaling part done by the GPU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
if madvr only accepts YV12 input, how come I could see on a reclock screenshot "23.976 fps, 1920x1080p, YUY2 16 bits" ?
got screenshot? I don't see how that's possible.

Last edited by leeperry; 6th December 2010 at 10:56.
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Old 6th December 2010, 18:48   #4992  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient
I disagree. With SoftCubic100, the lower resolution chroma is blurred much more than any luma information, so red/blue lines will be thicker and less saturated than green for example.

From my extensive testing, Bicubic75 produces the best results when chroma detail is compared to luma. After that it is spline, but spline has an 'artificial' look to it due to everything being drawn as curves.


For luma upscaling, I prefer SoftCubic50. Unlike most resampling algorithms this does not introduce much if any ringing into the picture, exaggerate noise or other compression artefacts, and keeps aliasing to a minimum. It is the closest result to what the source material looks like when viewed at native resolution on a good CRT.

It seems like this would be a good starting point as well if you plan on doing additional sharpening processing on top.

For luma downscaling I would use lanczos4. (or perhaps 8 but my system cannot handle it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing unless you're sources have not been encoded properly or you don't have the right setup and are sending madVR garbage. Calibration can also help with this issue as well. In addition, having the latest drivers and setting them up properly can prevent a lot of issues.
To me, spline looks very unnatural due to it converting everything to curves, fine details look especially bad.
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Old 6th December 2010, 19:25   #4993  |  Link
leeperry
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I like the idea of having the softest possible chroma + the sharpest luma...now, I might be willing to make compromises. I'm still undecided on spline luma up/down, but I like what I see so far...it still might look unnatural indeed.

madshi is always full of mysteries, but he recently said that maybe the most faithful to the source chroma wasn't the softest...need to chew on this, as he didn't seem too willing to back up this statement
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Old 6th December 2010, 20:50   #4994  |  Link
airblaster
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Upscaling on video wiedth = display width

Hello,

I just noticed that madVR upscales videos if display width (1280px in my case) is the same as video width (1280px).
Is there any need for upscaling in this kind of situation?

@madshi: thank you very much for releasing madVR, it is the best video renderer I've ever used :-)


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Old 6th December 2010, 23:24   #4995  |  Link
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chroma has to get upsampled. luma stays the same.
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Old 7th December 2010, 02:00   #4996  |  Link
fairchild
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I can't decide what looks better to my eyes. I want image quality nirvana :

chroma upscaling= Bicubic 75
luma upscaling = SoftCubic 50
luma downscaling= Lanczos 4 or 8

or

chroma upscaling= Spline 3
luma upscaling = Spline 3
luma downscaling= Spline 3

while using AviSynth LFS script (for both setups)

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Last edited by fairchild; 7th December 2010 at 02:09.
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Old 7th December 2010, 03:11   #4997  |  Link
leeperry
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I've done a bit more testing, I still very much enjoy the softest chroma + sharpest luma combo...it gives the most stunning PQ to my eyes

upscaling in ffdshow: bicubic 0.0 for chroma, spline for luma

in mVR: softcubic100 for chroma, spline3 for luma up/down

I use CRT and DLP, no LCD..
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Old 7th December 2010, 06:27   #4998  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airblaster View Post
Hello,

I just noticed that madVR upscales videos if display width (1280px in my case) is the same as video width (1280px).
Is there any need for upscaling in this kind of situation?

@madshi: thank you very much for releasing madVR, it is the best video renderer I've ever used :-)


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangix View Post
chroma has to get upsampled. luma stays the same.
@ airblaster: When the width or height of the video source matches one of the respective dimensions of the screen then madVR will NOT upscale anything.

Edit: @ Mangix: The video isn't upscaled but the chroma is upscampled. That's correct. That will happen with everything you feed to madVR since it does it's own internal conversions from YV12 4:2:2 -> RGB 4:4:4.

@ ALL: please understand that madVR resizes essentially to what YOU tell it to. if you put it at full screen and the scenario that airbender mentioned above is your situation, eg. (1920 x something on a 1080p or 1920 x 1200 screen or a 1280 x something on a 720p screen) then it will NOT upscale anything. If you have altered the viewing window from full-screen for full resolution video or from the normal size of the video then it will upscale/downscale. very easy concept to understand, don't understand why some people aren't getting this and are getting confused.

Last edited by dansrfe; 7th December 2010 at 15:58.
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Old 7th December 2010, 06:57   #4999  |  Link
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dansrfe - I was under the impression that chroma has to be upsampled when expanding from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4.
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Old 7th December 2010, 08:24   #5000  |  Link
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Chroma is always upsampled even when Luma is not.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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