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Old 5th February 2017, 19:52   #42281  |  Link
CruNcher
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Did somebody already tested if that new Maxwell Compute Optimization mode (most probably different software async sheduling mode) has any impact on the Cuda Hybrid Decoder or MadVRs NNEDI3 latency wise or in general on Cuvid OpenCL/Directcompute/Cuda on for example GM204 in a multi CPU/GPU Render workflow ?
Does it bring a measurable stability improvement ?

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Old 5th February 2017, 19:54   #42282  |  Link
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Why does a 1 pixel wide line in the source image have to result in an exact 2 pixel wide line in the upscaled image? When talking about highly aliased sources, there's no guarantee that assumption must be true. If you want each source pixel to map exactly to a 2x2 pixel in the upscaled image, basically you can do nearest neighbor upscaling. The pixel art specific algos like NNEDI3 and NGU pixart work differently. They take each source pixel as a given pixel and don't make any fixed assumptions on how the "missing" pixels in the upscaled image should look like. Instead they try to understand the overall image structure and then decide which interpolated pixels have the highest probability of being correct.

If you look at the NNEDI3-256 image, the lines are not exactly 2 pixels, either. Some of them are sharper/thinner than that, too. But you already said you never liked NNEDI3, either. Maybe that's why?

When talking about "hand drawn" pix art like Mario or other games, where each pixel was carefully set by an artist, I suppose another different algorithm could be designed which does make some assumptions like a 1 pixel wide line should double to a 2 pixel wide line. But if you think about aliased Anime videos, there could be many different reasons for why they could be aliased. One good reason is that at some point someone might have simply dropped every other line or colum (aka nearest neighbor downscaling). When doing that, a 1 pixel wide line in the low-res image could either be a 1-pixel wide line in the high-res image, or a 2-pixel wide line, or something in between.
it looks pretty extreme in this case

it doesn't seem to do the same for other sources where the line is not exactly 1 pixel. to be honest i haven't found any problem with NGU pixart for other sources yet.

it looks like and set and forget scaler.
or with other words i haven't found a "miss" for normal sources yet.

and of cause the x2 scaled image doesn't need a 2x line but some more close to it.

Quote:
The chroma bleeding probably comes from using Bicubic60 for chroma upscaling. Try switching to NGU pixart very high quality. That will result in NGU pixart to be used for the chroma channels, too. That should reduce chroma bleeding.
with very high and very high chroma issue is gone.
notable here is that the issue is mostly in the top left and the image is shifted to the top left.
and NGU pixart low and medium should work too or not?
running NGU medium AND NGU low on chroma to sounds ridiculously expensive.
if bicubic 60 Ar can't deal with it than there should be another cheap way to fix.
if it is 2x NGU "super low" x2 or something else doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't add the same artifacts.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:06   #42283  |  Link
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Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
Did somebody already tested if that new Maxwell Compute Optimization mode (most probably different software async sheduling mode) has any impact on the Cuda Hybrid Decoder or MadVRs NNEDI3 latency wise or in general on Cuvid on for example GM204 in a multi CPU/GPU Render workflow ?
Does it bring a stability improvement ?
Someone earlier reported a very minor performance increase (1ms lower rendering time or something), but no dramatic change.

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it looks pretty extreme in this case

it doesn't seem to do the same for other sources where the line is not exactly 1 pixel. to be honest i haven't found any problem with NGU pixart for other sources yet.

it looks like and set and forget scaler.
or with other words i haven't found a "miss" for normal sources yet.
So if performance were identical to super-xbr we could get rid of super-xbr? It's not there yet, though.

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with very high and very high chroma issue is gone.
notable here is that the issue is mostly in the top left and the image is shifted to the top left.
and NGU pixart low and medium should work too or not?
running NGU medium AND NGU low on chroma to sounds ridiculously expensive.
if bicubic 60 Ar can't deal with it than there should be another cheap way to fix.
if it is 2x NGU "super low" x2 or something else doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't add the same artifacts.
Well, the issue occurs mainly because the Mario test image has such extreme aliasing. The issue occurs simply because NGU pixart removes the aliasing, while Bicubic60 does not. So in all those places where NGU pixart has removed the aliasing, the Bicubic60 upscaled chroma channel doesn't fit the luma channel, anymore. This problem should be quite rare with real life content.

But this issue shows that chroma doubling quality *does* sometimes matter, which is also why when choosing NGU Very High, "let madVR decide" does activate NGU for chroma doubling, too.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:14   #42284  |  Link
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But this issue shows that chroma doubling quality *does* sometimes matter, which is also why when choosing NGU Very High, "let madVR decide" does activate NGU for chroma doubling, too.
but NGU medium into NGU low?
if NGU low is the fastest we have right now why not double low.
i think doubling chroma again is fine if it avoids issue like this.
but the performance cost is very high.

something that is never going to happen with super XBR BTW.

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So if performance were identical to super-xbr we could get rid of super-xbr? It's not there yet, though.
a little bit early to say this but yeah there is a chance i'm not missing super XBR.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:15   #42285  |  Link
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Someone earlier reported a very minor performance increase (1ms lower rendering time or something), but no dramatic change.
Performance is one thing stability another not always more performance means better/smoother render output and stability over time and that option seems to conquer AMD in those regards finally to overcome/workaround Hardware restrictions that most probably is by default enabled on Paxwell and now found it's way into the Maxwell Driver.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:16   #42286  |  Link
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True, I've not heard anything about stability.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:20   #42287  |  Link
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Do you try setting the player's power management mode to "Prefer maximum performance" on NV control panel?
I use Adaptive globally. There's no need to use Maximum at any time, unless an application profile calls for it. It's a waste of energy and doesn't offer any performance improvement over Adaptive, which basically ramps up/down when needed.

As I mentioned before, I have a 1440p screen and going from 1080p to 2160p and then back down to 1440p is a huge waste of resources. I don't really like doublers, and prefer scalers that can go from point A to point B in a single pass. Doubling goes from point A to point C and then back to point B. Double then downscale... what's the point?

NGU Pixart does look quite good though, and basically fixes the issues I had with NGU, i.e., that it was too sharp and aliased.

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Old 5th February 2017, 20:42   #42288  |  Link
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As I mentioned before, I have a 1440p screen and going from 1080p to 2160p and then back down to 1440p is a huge waste of resources. I don't really like doublers, and prefer scalers that can go from point A to point B in a single pass. Doubling goes from point A to point C and then back to point B. Double then downscale... what's the point?
Your reasoning is sound, but it's just a fact of life that a lot of the most advanced scalers can only double, either for performance reasons or by design. You might still get a better result by doubling with a really advanced scaler and downscaling than by upscaling with a less advanced scaler.
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:01   #42289  |  Link
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True, I've not heard anything about stability.
Gonna do some tests with Optix and the Hybrid H.265 Decoder while running MadVR NNEDI3

Though Optix most probably would be already efficient seeing how the current driver stalls it while using CPU/GPU simultaneously.
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:16   #42290  |  Link
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@madshi

Just tested how it plays out.

The new NGU looks best at Very High with my own video materials (mostly anime).
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:24   #42291  |  Link
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on second thought: NGU Pix new algo doesn't work well enough for 1440P.

The idea is that it looks much better than all the other algorithms with Anime that comes from a low quality source but you will need something stronger than a GTX 1080 to use it at very high in both chroma and image upscaling.
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Old 5th February 2017, 22:35   #42292  |  Link
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is there any new addition or tweaking of chroma upscaling with the new test build?

btw I have 26ms average stats with NGU medium for chroma upsampling, 35ms for high and >100ms for the very high setting (no other scaling involved; regular build). how come theres such a big difference for very high?
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Old 5th February 2017, 23:20   #42293  |  Link
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something that is never going to happen with super XBR BTW.
True.

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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
on second thought: NGU Pix new algo doesn't work well enough for 1440P.

The idea is that it looks much better than all the other algorithms with Anime that comes from a low quality source but you will need something stronger than a GTX 1080 to use it at very high in both chroma and image upscaling.
Not well enough compared to what? The only important question for me right now is if NGU pixart can replace NNEDI3 or not, because that's what it was designed for.

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is there any new addition or tweaking of chroma upscaling with the new test build?
Not sure what you mean.

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btw I have 26ms average stats with NGU medium for chroma upsampling, 35ms for high and >100ms for the very high setting (no other scaling involved; regular build). how come theres such a big difference for very high?
Very high has always been much more expensive than High, when using NGU. At some point I might add one more quality level between High and Very High, but now it is what it is.
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Old 5th February 2017, 23:38   #42294  |  Link
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Not sure what you mean.
what I mean is does chroma upsampling with NGU pixelart now look slightly different that with the regular scaler? (or will it be that way in the future)
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Old 5th February 2017, 23:50   #42295  |  Link
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The test build uses NGU pixelart instead of the regular NGU algo everywhere, for luma and chroma, so you guys can test if I can finally throw out NNEDI3 or not.
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Old 6th February 2017, 00:21   #42296  |  Link
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yeah, but since I hardly do any scaling atm, I am more interested just in changes of chroma upsampling and wondered if there are any differences between the regular algo and pixelart as well when it comes just to chroma upsampling
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Old 6th February 2017, 00:52   #42297  |  Link
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So would you say image quality is the same as before with 3-4 milliseconds saved? Or is image quality slightly better or worse than before? Can you see a difference in quality between NGU pixart Very High and NGU pixart Medium?
I'd say the picture quality with NGU pixart Very High looks a little better, or equal, depending on the source material. Definitely not worse with any material. Shaving off a few milliseconds is always a nice bonus!

There is slight loss of sharpness to my eyes with NGU pixart set to Medium. What really surprised me is there isn't a huge drop in quality between Very High to Medium. It also saves an additional 5 to 7 milliseconds of render time at Medium which is impressive. If I had less capable hardware, I'd have no issue with using the Medium setting. I'll stick with Very High for now with SD, because I can.
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Old 6th February 2017, 00:58   #42298  |  Link
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Here's a little comparison comparing various algorithms when upscaling pixel art (highly aliased sources):

low-res original -- | -- Jinc -- | -- waifu2x -- | -- NGU very high -- | -- super-xbr 100 -- | -- NNEDI3-16 -- | -- NNEDI3-256 -- | -- NGU pixart low -- | -- NGU pixart med -- | -- NGU pixart very high

As you can see, with sources like this, linear resamplers like Jinc fail. Also the standard "NGU Very High" and even the mighty waifu2x fail here. super-xbr does fine, after all that's exactly what it was made for. But best in class are NNEDI3 and NGU pixart.

Which do you prefer?

(Zooming a little into the images will reveal more.)
Holy! I like "NGU pixart" with games!

Any chance to release its sources? It would be very useful with emulators!
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Old 6th February 2017, 01:06   #42299  |  Link
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Quote:
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Not well enough compared to what? The only important question for me right now is if NGU pixart can replace NNEDI3 or not, because that's what it was designed for.
I see now.

NGU pixart is probably good to replace NNEDI3.

I only use NNEDI3 at 16 neurons - NGU very high is slower than NNEDI at 16 neurons in same conditions.

Example :

NNEDI3 at 16 neurons is slower than NGU at high

NGU pixart at very high takes double the time to process compared to NNEDI3 at 16 neurons.

More precise examples:

NGU high ~5ms

NNEDI3 at 16 neurons ~8ms

NGU very high ~16ms

If everything else was kept the same.
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Old 6th February 2017, 01:31   #42300  |  Link
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Is that because chroma doubling is occurring or is very high that much more demanding? (3x)

Does anyone else feel that low doesn't quite cut it?
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