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Old 20th March 2013, 11:15   #18061  |  Link
6233638
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Originally Posted by olli66 View Post
this leads to my next question...desktop better set to rgb or yuv?
If your display supports it, you are best to output RGB from a PC, because they work in RGB natively, and YUV/YCC is converted by the video card output. (often poorly)

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Originally Posted by hdboy View Post
Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?
I think the default is actually 0-255, but it shouldn't matter, because LAV should not be doing any conversions anyway.

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Originally Posted by digitech View Post
I have an nvidia Ion HTPC and a Hitachi L42A403 that as far as i know it doesn't support full range (0-255), in nvidia control panel theres an option called video configuration and then i can choose 0-255, do you recommend to set it to full range and madvr the same? even if my display doesn't support 0-255, maybe i have to force 0-255 with the .exe included in madvr, in Lav video settings do i have to set it to 0-255 too? I'm all mixed up, thanks all for your help.
That setting does not control the video card output, but rather the levels used inside media players. madVR ignores these settings as it has its own controls, but I think they should be set to 0-255.

If your display doesn't have a levels option, it may support displaying 0-255 if you adjust brightness and contrast. Many displays simply clip outside the 16-235 range and won't show anything though.

If it will display 0-255 when you adjust the brightness & contrast controls, then you can usually treat it as a display that supports 0-255.

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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.
If your display supports 0-255, then setup is easy - set everything to 0-255 and you don't have to think about it.
If your display does not support 0-255, you probably should not output 0-255 from the video card (using madNvLevelsTweaker.exe) and will have to compromise.

The first option is to have everything set to 0-255, except for the video card output, so that on the output stage it is being converted to 16-235. This means that all content is kept at the same levels (desktop & video) but the conversion to 16-235 on output may introduce banding. If you are using your PC for more than just video playback, this is the setup you have to use.

However, if you are going to be using the computer exclusively for watching videos through madVR, you have a second option. What you can do is set the video card output to 0-255, and set madVR to 16-235.

This will avoid the potential banding from having the video card compress the output levels to 16-235. But it will make anything that is not video look terrible, as anything on the desktop will still be outputting 0-255, and all values above 235 and below 16 will be clipped. (very high contrast image with no shadow/highlight detail)

I would only suggest doing this if your are only using the PC for video playback, and are seeing banding from the video card outputting 16-235.
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Old 20th March 2013, 11:42   #18062  |  Link
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Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.
I have a Panasonic Plasma too (PZ85E). My plasma seems to accept and display 0-255 without problem. But on the other hand; I had it calibrated by an ISF certified calibrator though.
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Old 20th March 2013, 18:47   #18063  |  Link
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hi guys, so there are many different opinions on the color range issue but what about a AVR that is connected between the HTPC and HDTV? my TV cannot handle 0-255 via HDMI and I only have one option for output of my AVR no matter if it is my HTPC, Wii-U, Xbox360 or PS3 which I pass through to my TV...
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Old 20th March 2013, 22:03   #18064  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
If your display supports it, you are best to output RGB from a PC, because they work in RGB natively, and YUV/YCC is converted by the video card output. (often poorly)
YCbCr is just encoded RGB right? But it seems that xvYCC has an extended gamut compared to sRGB.
My TV supports xvYCC (YCbCr444), should I use it or use RGB instead not having into account poor conversion (I use my TV for video only, not games, etc.)?

Thanks
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Old 21st March 2013, 02:27   #18065  |  Link
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I use Windows Media Centre (WMC) to watch TV & call Media Player via MyMovies to watch movies.
The WMC render used a render that has no ability to see Black level to 0 and White level 255 unless you really mess with the video driver levels and that's "bad".
So if you use WMC at all, you need to keep Black levels at 16 and White levels at 235, but display the full range 0-255.
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Old 21st March 2013, 03:34   #18066  |  Link
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I don't get what the big problem is here. Those of you asking what to use just need to use a test pattern yourself. Set all to 0-255 and then see if you get clipping on the pattern. If all is good you'll only see limited range because it's correctly being dealt with by MadVR.

The only time to set limited is if the test pattern is showing incorrectly because video is being expanded to full range and then clipped by your display or avr. (E.g. your avr or display don't pass the full range.

In short, just use a pattern to work it out yourself.

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Old 21st March 2013, 18:14   #18067  |  Link
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I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.
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Old 21st March 2013, 20:34   #18068  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.
Smooth Motion option 1 activating erroneously with high refresh rate multiples is a known issue in 0.86.1, which should be resolved in the next madVR release.
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Old 21st March 2013, 21:05   #18069  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Kado View Post
YCbCr is just encoded RGB right? But it seems that xvYCC has an extended gamut compared to sRGB.
My TV supports xvYCC (YCbCr444), should I use it or use RGB instead not having into account poor conversion (I use my TV for video only, not games, etc.)?

Thanks
I am not sure what you mean by "is just encoded RGB". YCbCr is a different color space than RGB, they cannot be mapped into each other 1:1, sometimes two RGB values will map to the same YCbCr values and vice versa. xvYCC allows colors outside the normal RGB space but this doesn't help unless you have content that includes those colors. However, from my limited understanding, there isn't a downside to converting to xvYCC.
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Old 21st March 2013, 21:16   #18070  |  Link
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Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.
Was there something taken out of context? The only reason I can think of that you would want this setup, is if you wanted to pass BTB/WTW while still matching your levels between display and video; however your desktop will be using the wrong range and will have clipped white/blacks and an overall incorrect picture.

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
That would be the proper setup if your TV does not support full-range RGB, and requires limited. But if it supports full-range, it should be used, imho.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.
Since you have a 120Hz display that properly plays 24p, you don't need to use FRC smooth motion. Just set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 24p.

Last edited by rahzel; 21st March 2013 at 21:23.
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Old 21st March 2013, 21:38   #18071  |  Link
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post
Since you have a 120Hz display that properly plays 24p, you don't need to use FRC smooth motion. Just set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 24p.
119.88012 works for both 24/1.001 and 30/1.001, no need for FRC or changing refresh rates.
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Old 21st March 2013, 21:54   #18072  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
119.88012 works for both 24/1.001 and 30/1.001, no need for FRC or changing refresh rates.
If you're outputting 120Hz refresh rate, yes. But AFAIK, most (if not all) 120Hz/240Hz HDTVs can't actually accept a 120Hz signal, only 120Hz computer monitors. If you have a 120Hz HDTV you'll probably need to output 23Hz to properly handle 24p and to avoid judder. Outputting 59/60Hz to a 120Hz display will still have judder because 59/60 is not a multiple of 24. It will convert 24 -> 60, then it will display each frame twice. Outputting 23Hz (actually ~23.976) it will display each frame 5x.

Last edited by rahzel; 21st March 2013 at 22:18.
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Old 21st March 2013, 21:56   #18073  |  Link
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Why do you round 23.976 down to 23?
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Old 21st March 2013, 22:11   #18074  |  Link
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Why do you round 23.976 down to 23?
Ask Microsoft (or perhaps the GPU makers).

Selecting 23Hz in the desktop will actually output ~23.976Hz (more or less, depending on your GPU maker). 24Hz will actually output ~24Hz. Your actual display refresh rate can be checked in madVR's OSD (ctrl + J during playback).

I believe you can add refresh rates to madVR to automatically switch when the frame rate matches.

Last edited by rahzel; 21st March 2013 at 22:23.
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Old 21st March 2013, 22:59   #18075  |  Link
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If you're outputting 120Hz refresh rate, yes. But AFAIK, most (if not all) 120Hz/240Hz HDTVs can't actually accept a 120Hz signal, only 120Hz computer monitors.
Ah very true, but if it isn't accepting a 120Hz signal I don't consider it a 120Hz display. I don't care what they write on the box, they seem to write anything they feel like on the box with no consistant meaning to any of it.
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Old 21st March 2013, 23:17   #18076  |  Link
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HDTVs do internal 120Hz processing. They may not be true 120Hz displays in the sense that they will not accept 120Hz signals, but they do handle 24p content properly... something that normal 60Hz HDTVs do not. I bought a Panasonic 60ST50 plasma (60Hz) to replace my LG 55LH90 LCD/LED (240Hz) as my main theater display and I do slightly miss the ability to properly handle 24p content. FRC plays film at 60Hz better than my ST50 converts 24p -> 60Hz so it's not so bad now.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 01:15   #18077  |  Link
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My LG PK750 plasma accepts 24 or 60 Hz and it is a 60Hz display, you don't need 120 Hz anything to support 24 Hz. I don't understand the point of 120 Hz displays that only accept 60Hz input but I only plug PCs into all my displays so I am probably not the normal user.

How do they support 24p in a 60Hz signal properly? Automatic detection of the 3:2 pattern and display each of the frames that had been duplicated 3 times for two internal refreshes and the frames that had been duplicated 2 times for three internal refreshes? It seems like this would start having issues with anime or other sources that have their own odd pattern of duplicates. I don't have a fake 120+ Hz display to test with but I hear they have gotten pretty good at this but I still don't like calling them 120Hz displays. What do you call a real 120Hz display then? Adding back light strobing and calling that double refresh rate is insulting, even if back light strobing looks good it isn't equivalent to 2x the refresh rate.

Sorry for the rant.

Good thing MadVR's automatic refresh rate changer works so well.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 01:26   #18078  |  Link
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I think the point is that the displays do refresh at 120Hz, it's just they don't accept a 120Hz signal.

It's easier to turn 24 into 120 than 60, which is the reason for these displays.

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Old 22nd March 2013, 01:41   #18079  |  Link
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I thought most TVs showed 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz but it could just as easily be 120 Hz on some sets. Any integer multiple at 72 Hz or higher would be fine. Also note that any TV advertised as "120 Hz" would be using 100 Hz for 25p/25i/50p input signals.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 01:51   #18080  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
My LG PK750 plasma accepts 24 or 60 Hz and it is a 60Hz display, you don't need 120 Hz anything to support 24 Hz. I don't understand the point of 120 Hz displays that only accept 60Hz input but I only plug PCs into all my displays so I am probably not the normal user.

How do they support 24p in a 60Hz signal properly? Automatic detection of the 3:2 pattern and display each of the frames that had been duplicated 3 times for two internal refreshes and the frames that had been duplicated 2 times for three internal refreshes? It seems like this would start having issues with anime or other sources that have their own odd pattern of duplicates. I don't have a fake 120+ Hz display to test with but I hear they have gotten pretty good at this but I still don't like calling them 120Hz displays. What do you call a real 120Hz display then? Adding back light strobing and calling that double refresh rate is insulting, even if back light strobing looks good it isn't equivalent to 2x the refresh rate.

Sorry for the rant.

Good thing MadVR's automatic refresh rate changer works so well.
120Hz HDTVs do refresh at 120Hz, they just don't accept the signal. I don't think it's a limitation, just that they're not really designed that way. Other than PC gaming, there really isn't anything that takes advantage of these high refresh rates.

60Hz displays may support 24p, but they don't do it the same way 120Hz displays do. They must convert the framerate to play properly at 60Hz... this isn't the proper way of handling 24p as it will introduce judder unless they have some sort of internal processing that removes the judder. 120Hz HDTVs display the 24 frames 5x per second without conversion so there shouldn't be any judder.

My ST50 also accepts 24Hz input, but doing so shows noticeable artifacts, which is why I use FRC and just output 60Hz from my HTPC instead.

Last edited by rahzel; 22nd March 2013 at 01:54.
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