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Old 16th October 2018, 09:29   #53281  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
Why would you use 16-235 when you can '0-255 ?
'Cos he has his TV on low black levels (16-235)
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Old 16th October 2018, 10:03   #53282  |  Link
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This thread "crushes my soul".

I have an older LG LCD TV, and if I select any calibration settings it looks crap, if I adjust settings to get good blacks, everything else looks crap.

Life is too short.
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Old 16th October 2018, 10:33   #53283  |  Link
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RIP the black level on most LG OLEDs ~2017 and older. Now back to our usual programming.
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Old 16th October 2018, 16:20   #53284  |  Link
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Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
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'Cos he has his TV on low black levels (16-235)
Yup. And it works great for me.
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Old 16th October 2018, 16:56   #53285  |  Link
Warner306
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Yes, you are right, I mixed up the comp monitor's results with my 500 nits SDR TV that indeed follows the original PQ curve up to 50% (but the roll-off is still very abrupt and is still clipped in 80-100% range, only when I select Master MaxL in HCFR to 10000 nits does the BT.2390 reference that HCFR underlays follow the MadVR roll-off more closely -still trying to get my head around this...this could well be a HCFR settings problem...

MadVR puts the diffuse white at about 80 cd/m2 for the said 200 nit monitor. Does this sound as being more in the ballpark?
Are you using HCFR to calibrate HDR -> SDR? That wouldn't work if you are trying to track BT.2390 because the actual gamma curve is 2.20 or 2.40 pure power gamma.

80 nits sounds too bright for reference white if room was left for specular highlights, but it is difficult to tell for sure because it is unknown where compression begins when the target nits is set to less than 480 nits. And you are still only getting a ratio of the original curve's target nits.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:17   #53286  |  Link
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Are you using HCFR to calibrate HDR -> SDR? That wouldn't work if you are trying to track BT.2390 because the actual gamma curve is 2.20 or 2.40 pure power gamma.
Can you explain? I'm not using bulit-in patterns but rather R. Masciola's HDR patterns in manual mode although I'd prefer it if MadVR HDR->SDR processing worked with MadTPG.

Last edited by mytbyte; 16th October 2018 at 17:21.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:26   #53287  |  Link
Warner306
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PQ is converted to SDR gamma, so the original BT.2390 curve will be lost. SDR is also relative and not absolute like PQ. You could try calibrating in SDR, but pixel shader changes the gamma curve, so the charts might not look right.

The best you can do is check for black and white clipping. Try these patterns. I would suggest pausing the 8-bit black clipping pattern because it is short. Setting the correct gamma curve in madVR is the most important part of this test.

Even then, once black clipping is set to the correct gamma curve, your eyes will be a better guide as to what looks best. You will lose something in contrast or brightness no matter what you choose.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th October 2018 at 17:28.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:54   #53288  |  Link
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@Warner: but HDR converted to SDR should result in PQ points when measured with a meter, from HDR patterns run through MadVR and the measured max display's nits entered into madVR, no? In that case it's not relative...I mean, I get almost perfect PQ tracking when I set MadVR curve to "clipping" (that being pure PQ, I suppose) and it looks in no way particularly wrong on screen...of course, converting HDR to SDR loses the precision of PQ (less bits allocated to low end)

Thanks for the link.

Last edited by mytbyte; 16th October 2018 at 17:57.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:56   #53289  |  Link
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Maybe. I'd like to see what the charts look like when set to clipping and BT.2390. The curves shouldn't match perfectly because they are different gamma curves. Setting madVR to 2.20 or 2.40 would change the gamma curve. I wouldn't think it would track the PQ curve the same in both instances.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th October 2018 at 18:04.
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Old 16th October 2018, 18:23   #53290  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Maybe. I'd like to see what the charts look like when set to clipping and BT.2390. The curves shouldn't match perfectly because they are different gamma curves. Setting madVR to 2.20 or 2.40 would change the gamma curve. I wouldn't think it would track the PQ curve the same in both instances.
If you have control over the TV's gamma and can measure it, I suppose you can choose what fits you tv's response.

I'll try to upload the charts these days, watch this space.
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Old 16th October 2018, 19:27   #53291  |  Link
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Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I cannot get RGB Full 12bpc set in NVIDIA settings for 3840x2160 23hz. I have tried setting it to YCbCr422 then changing it after that but it always resets back to YCbCr422 limited. I am on Windows 1803 and have tried multiple NVIDIA drivers to no avail.
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Old 16th October 2018, 22:05   #53292  |  Link
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@Warner306:

Here are the graphs I promised for the monitor, can't do the TV at this time:

LG_IPS235_graph

I performed new measurements because white balance drifted a bit so peak brightness is actually 175 cd/m2 (and we complained about plasma brightness). I also used MadVR 0.92.17 and it seems math is a bit different than before, making my previous comments irrelevant. Color tweaks and highlight recovery are set to disabled/none, not to interfere with BT.2390 math.

Screenshot titles are self explanatory but I'll recap:

LG_IPS235_175nits_Gamma2.2.png - this is the measured gamma of the monitor when set to 2.2 preset (no 10-point adjustment available) and measured with HCFR's internal automatic SDR patterns nits to check if gamma is tracking well even at peak brightness

LG_IPS235_175nits_PQ.png - this is the PQ tracking (MadVR set to clipping), manual HDR pattern advance

LG_IPS235_175nits_BT.2390.png - this is the BT.2390 tracking when HCFR reference settings are set to default

LG_IPS235_100nits_BT.2390_MinL=0.13_MaxL=10000.png - this is the BT.2390 tracking when MadVR is set to minimum allowed peak brightness of 100 nits and Master MinL is set to monitor's measured black level, while Master MaxL is set to theoretical maximum of 10000 nits

provided HCFR math is correct, it seems Master MinL and MaxL values affect the reference BT.2390 curve and make MadVR's math, as measured, track closer/smoother. BT.2390 tracking drifts significantly at 50 & 60% stimulus even though the measured gamma the BT.2390 curve is transposed to is "perfect"..

perhaps the measured black level value should also be added to MadVR's math?

As for your patterns, I can see very faint flashing at the right side of the screen with "Black Level 10-bit" as well as slightly lighter right side compared to left side with "Black level 8-bit/10-bit combined".

Last edited by mytbyte; 16th October 2018 at 23:11.
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Old 16th October 2018, 23:20   #53293  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Everything works with Software decoding or DXVA2/D3D11 Copy-Back (because copy-back looks like software decoding to a renderer). And between those last two, DXVA2 Copy-Back is usually preferable because its more efficient, unless you need D3D11 to access a headless GPU.
I've done some tests and was quite surprised with the results.

Playing 4K23 content (chroma NGU High and minor enhancements), I got:

DXVA2 Native: 12.5ms
DXVA2 CB: 21ms

D3D11 Native: 16ms
D3D11 CB: 22ms

While I was aware of the performance loss between D3D11 native and CB, I would have expected DXVA2 CB to do better than that. There isn't much of a performance gain between DXVA2 CB and D3D11 CB, at least here.

DXVA2 native produces the most significant gain, and the only one that would make a difference for me, as it means I could play 4K60 in the same quality. Unfortunately, not an option for me due to the lack of black bars detection.

Weirder, with 1080p23 content (NGU High chroma, NGU very high luma), all modes give around 22ms, there doesn't seem to be any performance gain going native.

So I'm not sure what the advantage is to use DXVA2 CB vs D3D11 CB if there is little to no performance gain.

Hopefully we'll get one of the native modes to support black bars detection at some point, without losing too much performance and getting to CB level.

I guess it's good to know that I can go back to DXVA2 native if at some point I need the performance as I can always shift my picture with the mechanical lens shift instead of doing it electronically with MadVR. Black bars detection is the only thing I would miss I think going native.

Thanks again for clarifying things for me and for prompting this re-evaluation.
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Last edited by Manni; 16th October 2018 at 23:27.
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Old 16th October 2018, 23:21   #53294  |  Link
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Quick question to 1050 Ti users: Is the 1050 Ti fast enough to do 4Kp60 HDR tone mapping with all the bells and whistles (measurements + highlight recovery + "compromise" disabled)?
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Old 16th October 2018, 23:24   #53295  |  Link
Manni
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Quick question to 1050 Ti users: Is the 1050 Ti fast enough to do 4Kp60 HDR tone mapping with all the bells and whistles (measurements + highlight recovery + "compromise" disabled)?
The 1080ti isn't able to do 4K60 HDR with all the bells and whistles (see my post just above yours), unless you use DXVA2 native (in which case you lose black bars detection), so I doubt the 1050ti can. Config in my sig.
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Last edited by Manni; 16th October 2018 at 23:37.
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Old 16th October 2018, 23:47   #53296  |  Link
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When talking about bells and whistles, I meant in terms of HDR tone mapping. I don't consider NGU Chroma upscaling to be crucial. So, using e.g. D3D11 native decoding, with default chroma upscaling (Bicubic), and no other fancy options activated, can the 1050 Ti do 4Kp60 HDR tone mapping with measurement + highlight recovery?
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Old 17th October 2018, 00:04   #53297  |  Link
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Isn't DXVA2 Native also limited in what further processing madVR can do? Is it "just" chroma upscaling and black bars detection?
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Old 17th October 2018, 00:21   #53298  |  Link
Manni
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When talking about bells and whistles, I meant in terms of HDR tone mapping. I don't consider NGU Chroma upscaling to be crucial. So, using e.g. D3D11 native decoding, with default chroma upscaling (Bicubic), and no other fancy options activated, can the 1050 Ti do 4Kp60 HDR tone mapping with measurement + highlight recovery?
I agree NGU chroma isn't necessary, but isn't black bar detection essential for many? You lose that with native.

Otherwise yes with bicubic and native D3D11, I would expect the 1050ti to handle 4K60, but that means home cinema use is excluded, unless you find a way to support black bar detection with D3D11 native.

By the way I've just run a comparison in power use, and D3D11 native is far more efficient than copy back. In only requires around 50% CPU and 65% GPU for 4K60p with NGU chroma medium at 4K60p, while copy back requires 90% GPU and 100% CPU. This means a lot of unnnecessary heat! [EDIT: these measurements are wrong, I had Teamviewer running in the background! See this post for actual measurements)].

The difference is similar between DXVA2 native and copyback, but I seem to remember that there was some banding issues with DXVA2 native, so it looks like D3D11 native would be the way to go, provided there is black bar detection support.
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Last edited by Manni; 17th October 2018 at 12:04.
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Old 17th October 2018, 00:51   #53299  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
@Warner306:

Here are the graphs I promised for the monitor, can't do the TV at this time:

LG_IPS235_graph

I performed new measurements because white balance drifted a bit so peak brightness is actually 175 cd/m2 (and we complained about plasma brightness). I also used MadVR 0.92.17 and it seems math is a bit different than before, making my previous comments irrelevant. Color tweaks and highlight recovery are set to disabled/none, not to interfere with BT.2390 math.
Based on those graphs, I think the gamma response is perfect up to the limit of the display brightness (clipping at 175 nits).

I don't know how you will ever judge the performance of tone mapping, though, for brighter stimulus. The BT.2390 in HCFR wouldn't account for the gamut mapping in madVR. I don't know if there would be clipping or if the lack of anything but white would prevent out-of-gamut pixels. This might change the luminance of many pixels with a 10,000 nit stimulus down to 100 nits if any pixels were out-of-gamut. Have you tried tone mapping something like 500 nits down to 175 target nits in madVR?

Were you trying to find a target nits that perfectly tracked BT.2390 all the way to 100% output? The only commonality I see is that the brightness does seem to get to white too slow or too fast at the top. Maybe that is something that is lost in translation with SDR? And maybe it is close enough?

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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
perhaps the measured black level value should also be added to MadVR's math?
Don't know if that would help or not. The display is supposed to account for this.

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As for your patterns, I can see very faint flashing at the right side of the screen with "Black Level 10-bit" as well as slightly lighter right side compared to left side with "Black level 8-bit/10-bit combined".
That part don't make no sense. Only the 8-bit pattern should display correctly, but you shouldn't fail the black clipping test if you are clipping correctly to 175 nits. The gradient should go from right-to-left until Bar 16.

Last edited by Warner306; 17th October 2018 at 01:14.
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Old 17th October 2018, 00:58   #53300  |  Link
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Quick question to 1050 Ti users: Is the 1050 Ti fast enough to do 4Kp60 HDR tone mapping with all the bells and whistles (measurements + highlight recovery + "compromise" disabled)?
At 1080p, a GTX 1050 Ti can't do tone mapping for 60 fps content with highlight recovery enabled. highlight recovery is the killer, as it pushes rendering times way over 16ms. This is with scale chroma separately enabled.

Last edited by Warner306; 17th October 2018 at 01:01.
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