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Old 15th April 2009, 11:00   #301  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowknight26 View Post
madshi, I'm not sure if this would be classified as a MPC-HC issue or a madVR issue, but whenever you try to take a screenshot while using madVR (only tested it with the non-special build), an error appears about GetCurrentImage failing with error code 80070057.
Already reported, on my to do list.

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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Bugfix request: multiple monitor support ...
Should work just fine with v0.4, as long as you don't move the media player window to another monitor after playback has already started. That needs some work, but it's not top priority for me. Just make sure you start playback on the monitor you want to watch on.

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Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
I was wondering why you chose to use 3D LUTs for CSC and gamma correction.
The main purpose of using the 3D LUT is gamut correction. Actually, offering a way of doing gamut correction via shaders has been one of the major reasons why I started madVR in the first place.

However, I have on my to do list to offer CSC via shader math as an option for those (probably many) people who do not want/need to do gamut correction. Not sure whether I'll offer gamma correction via 1D LUTs then, though, cause I don't like having 100 different code paths. I'll probably only offer either CSC via shaders and no gamut/gamma correction at all. Or the full deal with a monstrous 3D LUT, which will offer all the calibration/correction power we could ever dream of.

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Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
3D LUTs are normally used for complex Gamut correction (mostly for printing purposes) and are (almost) never used in professional video processing HW.
Yes, complex gamut correction is exactly one of the things madVR is intended for. What works for still pictures should also do the trick for moving pictures. Actually it may almost be too good quality for moving pictures. But that doesn't harm, does it? And even last generation mid range graphics cards seem to be able to handle the load just fine. So why should we not go for the best possible gamut correction solution?

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Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
Writing shaders for CSC will also allow adding features like contract brightness, saturation and hue modifications with a small complication to the shader code - perform full 3x3 matrix multiplication (9 multiplications, 12 additions, 3 clips). All of these can be easily modified in realtime.
You seem to know this math quite well. Do you happen to have some formulas ready for doing CSC including brightness, contrast, saturation and hue modifications? I'm just a programmer, but not a math guy, so I'll need help in that area. Well, probably yesgrey3 could help me out there just fine, too. But if you already have some formulas ready, then that would help!
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Old 15th April 2009, 14:27   #302  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
Performing CSC using 3D LUTs is a major overkill and should be significantly faster by performing the calculations in a shader.
Actually the 3D LUT processing doesn't cost much performance at all. I've just checked: If I simply skip the 3D LUT (and thus display YCbCr without converting it to RGB), rendering one 1080p24 frame takes about 15.5ms on my ATI HD3850 graphics card. If I enable 3D LUT processing, it takes 17ms.
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Old 15th April 2009, 14:38   #303  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually the 3D LUT processing doesn't cost much performance at all. I've just checked: If I simply skip the 3D LUT (and thus display YCbCr without converting it to RGB), rendering one 1080p24 frame takes about 15.5ms on my ATI HD3850 graphics card. If I enable 3D LUT processing, it takes 17ms.
so you could render YCbCr and output it losslessly over HDMI/DVI? because it's not possible in either MPC HC/EVR/HR...they all convert to RGB32, then encode in RGB24 TMDS AFAIK.

but I think most displays will convert again to RGB internally, and w/ much worse results than yours anyway..

Last edited by leeperry; 15th April 2009 at 14:48.
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Old 15th April 2009, 14:42   #304  |  Link
mark0077
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I imagined the LUT would be faster also. madshi, just want to tell you about a huge lut I made use of during a uni project. I am wondering how much memory does your lut table take up. Maybe it could be optimized like I did for this project I talk of.

The lut I worked on was a 7 dimension array of 0-51 possibilities, of 7 poker card values actually (0-51 as possible values for each card) with each combination in the array pointing to a ranking between 0 and 7142. (It turns out surprisingly that thats the amount of 5 card texas holdem possibilities there are possible from 7 cards). You can image a 7^52 array would have been MASSIVE, like hundreds of gigabytes. I used a pruning technique I found on a maths forum specific to this to reduce the size, where after the second or third card (2nd or 3rd dimension in the array) various combinations of those 3 values would point to an equivalent future. (eg, AKQJT of hearts always shares the same final value as AKQJT of clubs, no matter what the last two cards are. It took a large loop, and the use of the original massive array to figure out which early dimensions ALWAYS follow the same path to a final value and generate the pruned array (actually 7 smaller arrays, each one a different size depending on futures at each stage instead of one giant one). I hope I have made this clear, and hope it can help somehow.

I am not sure how this could be applied exactly to this color levels conversion / gamut conversion case but something I wouldn't mind looking into if you think it might help. For my poker project it ended up going from hundreds of megabytes, down to something that could fit in a mobile phones memory and executed MUCH faster than the original massive array because most of the array could be fit in the cpu's inner cache. What sort of dimensions is the LUT you are dealing with and whats the final size in mb?

Last edited by mark0077; 15th April 2009 at 14:54.
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Old 15th April 2009, 14:54   #305  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
so you could render YCbCr and output it losslessly over HDMI/DVI?
No, in my test I output YCbCr data, masked as RGB. So colors were all funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
The lut I worked on was of 7 poker card values (0-51 as possible values for each card) with each 7 card values pointing to a rank between 0 and 7142 I believe. Turns out thats the amount of 5 card possibilities there are from 7 cards. You can image a 7^52 array would have been MASSIVE, like hundreds of gigabytes. I used a pruning technique I found on a maths forum to reduce the size, where after the second or third card (2nd or 3rd dimension in the array) various combinations of those 3 values would point to an equivalent future. (eg, AKQJT of hearts always shares the same final value as AKQJT of clubs, no matter what the last two cards are. It took a large loop, and the use of the original massive array to figure out and generate the pruned array (actually 7 smaller arrays instead of one giant one). I hope I have made this clear, and hope it can help somehow.

I am not sure how this could be applied exactly to this color levels conversion / gamut conversion case but something I wouldn't mind looking into if you think it might help. What sort of dimensions is the LUT and whats the final size in mb?
It has 3 dimensions, that's why the file has the extension "3dlut"... Size is 96MB. I don't think pruning would work well for this type of LUT because virtually any input color maps to a different output color.
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Old 15th April 2009, 14:59   #306  |  Link
mark0077
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No, in my test I output YCbCr data, masked as RGB. So colors were all funny.


It has 3 dimensions, that's why the file has the extension "3dlut"... Size is 96MB. I don't think pruning would work well for this type of LUT because virtually any input color maps to a different output color.
Ah thats not too huge.
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Old 15th April 2009, 16:10   #307  |  Link
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If madVR employed shaders to do the conversion, that would be just Haali Render clone in effect Colour Gamuts conversion may be very much of use per se as well, as there're different LCD monitors now available, including those which colour gamut widely exceeds sRGB standard, for instance LED-backlight displays (upto 120% of NTSC gamut). They are rare nowdays but certainly going to become much more popular when technology evolves.
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Old 15th April 2009, 17:35   #308  |  Link
racerxnet
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DVD navigation should be a must. I realize this renderer is in its infancy, but selecting a VOB is a pain in the butt. For everyday use this has no WAF. It does not play from one VOB to the next, it stops playing at the end of the file and you need to select the next to continue.

The picture looks great and I thank Madishi for his efforts. As he has stated, he has his priorities. Basic playback capabilities will put this as MY number one renderer.

I think that the more user friendly it becomes, the more people will use it. Right now it has potential, but without navigation from within the disc it is very limited in its use.

Thanks for everyone's support and help.

MAK
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Old 15th April 2009, 18:07   #309  |  Link
Rectal Prolapse
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leeperry, et. al.: What is this powerstrip search engine you guys are talking about? I can't find a reference to it anywhere else except doom9!

EDIT: Oh, I think I found it (had to use google):

From a post about powerstrip 3.80 back in june 2008:

Quote:
In addition to support for a couple of new GPUs from S3 and AMD, this build includes:

1. tooltips for h/v frequency providing mathematically more precise data: hover the mouse pointer over the H/V "Geometry" labels.
2. a timing "finder" for registered users with GF6/GF7, Radeon and Intel Extreme graphics: UNcheck "Real-time adjustrment", input the refresh rate desired, hold down Ctrl+Alt+LShift and double-click the "Vertical geometry" label
3. improved Windows device/hardware controller correspondence for dual-headed R600 and newer AMD GPUs
4. more precise measurement of the vertical refresh rate using the DirectX VBI: double-click the camera icon on the Display profiles page

Last edited by Rectal Prolapse; 15th April 2009 at 18:16.
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Old 15th April 2009, 18:15   #310  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by Rectal Prolapse View Post
leeperry, et. al.: What is this powerstrip search engine you guys are talking about? I can't find a reference to it anywhere else except doom9!
look for threads created by Seb.26 on the official pstrip forum, after a few pages he managed to make Rik Wang agree to add it and it's all explained
make sure to run it w/ your display turned off as it cycles refresh rates very quickly and might very well make it go up in smoke
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Old 15th April 2009, 18:17   #311  |  Link
Rectal Prolapse
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Thanks leeperry.
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Old 15th April 2009, 18:30   #312  |  Link
flanger216
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Originally Posted by Egh View Post
If madVR employed shaders to do the conversion, that would be just Haali Render clone in effect Colour Gamuts conversion may be very much of use per se as well, as there're different LCD monitors now available, including those which colour gamut widely exceeds sRGB standard, for instance LED-backlight displays (upto 120% of NTSC gamut). They are rare nowdays but certainly going to become much more popular when technology evolves.
Ah, that's a really good point. I tested a prerelease LCD from DELL that can operate natively in a ProPhoto RGB colorspace (roughly 200% sRGB). So I guess the efficacy of 3Dlut conversions can only increase with time...
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Old 15th April 2009, 18:58   #313  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by racerxnet View Post
DVD navigation should be a must. I realize this renderer is in its infancy, but selecting a VOB is a pain in the butt. For everyday use this has no WAF. It does not play from one VOB to the next, it stops playing at the end of the file and you need to select the next to continue.
it's not the renderer's job to take care of this ?!
try KMPlayer, enable "seamless playback", open the first VOB and it will play all of them in a row seamlessly.

if that feature was in MPC, I would drop KMP instantly

and there's also an option to do this w/ ALL the videos within the same folder, so it looks like this :



that's 114 720p WMV files opened seamlessly(no gap, acts as if it were one single file)...so opening 5 VOB files in a row is like child's play

I wish so much that madshi would allow us to fake the GUID of mVR via the .ini file, so we could use it in KMP

Last edited by leeperry; 15th April 2009 at 19:03.
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Old 15th April 2009, 19:01   #314  |  Link
Kazuya
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I wish so much that madshi would allow us to fake the GUID of mVR via the .ini file, so we could use it in KMP
Oh yeah, that would be awesome !
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Old 15th April 2009, 19:09   #315  |  Link
Egh
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Originally Posted by flanger216 View Post
Ah, that's a really good point. I tested a prerelease LCD from DELL that can operate natively in a ProPhoto RGB colorspace (roughly 200% sRGB). So I guess the efficacy of 3Dlut conversions can only increase with time...
Yes. And as I already researched that issue (LED LCD panels etc) I'm already aware about downside -- due to increased gamut the clear colour gradients become even worse than on typical LCD panels. I.e. the colour span is wider but in current ubiquitous RGB32 just 8bit may not be enough to represent a gradient artifact-free (this of more importance to anime content of course). That's where madVR comes into play If only the producers understood that 10bit is good (and some AVC profiles like High10 actually support 10bit...)
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Old 15th April 2009, 21:07   #316  |  Link
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It's not the renderer's job to take care of this ?!
try KMPlayer, enable "seamless playback", open the first VOB and it will play all of them in a row seamlessly.

Thanks for the heads up on this, but unfortunately, searching for the starting VOB within the disk is not going to cut it for the family. Casino Royal has about 100 VOB files. Which one to choose??? Maybe KMPlayer can choose the correct one... I will look into the player. On another note is calibration disc usage to set primary and secondaries on my Marquee 9500 is tiresome. No way to navigate through the disc. PGCC from the AVS forum does the same thing as the LUT file in this program.

Once again, thanks for the information and knowledge.. Just my .02.

MAK
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Old 15th April 2009, 23:20   #317  |  Link
flanger216
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Originally Posted by racerxnet View Post
Thanks for the heads up on this, but unfortunately, searching for the starting VOB within the disk is not going to cut it for the family. Casino Royal has about 100 VOB files. Which one to choose??? Maybe KMPlayer can choose the correct one... I will look into the player. On another note is calibration disc usage to set primary and secondaries on my Marquee 9500 is tiresome. No way to navigate through the disc. PGCC from the AVS forum does the same thing as the LUT file in this program.

Once again, thanks for the information and knowledge.. Just my .02.

MAK
But again, what you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with video renderers. The renderer is just responsible for the output to your display; the media player itself is responsible for how files are played back. And anyway, almost all media players can play DVDs from a hard disk: in MPC-HC, you'd select 'open DVD,' browse to the folder containing all your "Casino Royale" VOBs, and then MPC-HC would open all of them as a cohesive DVD (menu support, seamless playback, the whole shebang). Wouldn't that be sufficient?
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Old 15th April 2009, 23:42   #318  |  Link
leeperry
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But again, what you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with video renderers. The renderer is just responsible for the output to your display; the media player itself is responsible for how files are played back. And anyway, almost all media players can play DVDs from a hard disk: in MPC-HC, you'd select 'open DVD,' browse to the folder containing all your "Casino Royale" VOBs, and then MPC-HC would open all of them as a cohesive DVD (menu support, seamless playback, the whole shebang). Wouldn't that be sufficient?
menus don't work in HR, and neither did they do in EVR last time I tried....apparently DVD Navigator is not being used properly by either the player or the video renderers?!

@racerxnet: open those that are 1GB in a row, that's the movie! but no subs w/o menus I think
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Old 16th April 2009, 00:50   #319  |  Link
cyberbeing
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menus don't work in HR
DVD menus do work in Haali Renderer.
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Old 16th April 2009, 01:07   #320  |  Link
leeperry
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DVD menus do work in Haali Renderer.
hah...in what player? w/ ffdshow on top of it? Mark0707 seemed to suggest that ffdshow was at cause somehow ?!

and w/ the m$ DVD Navigator?
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