Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Capturing and Editing Video > Avisynth Usage

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th October 2006, 02:08   #1  |  Link
Chainmax
Huh?
 
Chainmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 3,103
Plain deinterlacing or Bob+SelectEvery: what do you prefer and why?

Is there an inherent advantage for each method on particular cases?
__________________
Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
Chainmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2006, 02:24   #2  |  Link
Mug Funky
interlace this!
 
Mug Funky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise
Posts: 4,547
bob.selecteven/odd can be useful for detecting if something's already been deinterlaced (the bad way ala final cut pro or premiere). if there's not-very-much difference between the source and the bob.selecteven then it's been deinterlaced and needs to be eedi2'ed up to a higher res.

but generally you can tell that just by looking at it
__________________
sucking the life out of your videos since 2004
Mug Funky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2006, 02:33   #3  |  Link
Chainmax
Huh?
 
Chainmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 3,103
So Bob+SelectEvery is not a good deinterlacing method then? What about straight-up deinterlacing, is TDeint+EEDI2 still the preferred method?
__________________
Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
Chainmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2006, 02:41   #4  |  Link
Mug Funky
interlace this!
 
Mug Funky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise
Posts: 4,547
i think the preferred method is the one that gives the better visual quality vs speed tradeoff. depending on the situation that's usually somewhere between leakkerneldeint and tdeint.

[edit]

of course, if you want a guarantee of no artefacts (except aliasing), then bob.selecteven is probably the way to go
__________________
sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

Last edited by Mug Funky; 13th October 2006 at 02:46.
Mug Funky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2006, 02:56   #5  |  Link
Chainmax
Huh?
 
Chainmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 3,103
I'm only interested in the best quality short of interlaced encoding. I guess that still means TDeint+EEDI2 then, thanks for the feedback .
__________________
Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
Chainmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2006, 05:31   #6  |  Link
Seed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainmax View Post
I'm only interested in the best quality short of interlaced encoding. I guess that still means TDeint+EEDI2 then, thanks for the feedback .
I thought many people (including some gurus) here preferred mvbob or its variants, if speed is not an issue? I myself am a bit confused.
Seed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2006, 01:29   #7  |  Link
Chainmax
Huh?
 
Chainmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 3,103
MVBob and its variants are bobbers: they deinterlace to double the original framerate. What I'm asking about is same-framerate deinterlacers.
__________________
Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
Chainmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2006, 03:42   #8  |  Link
Didée
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,394
Basically, quality-wise both methods are the same. The result depends on the used deinterlacing routine only. A same-framerate deinterlacer will ask you for a "field=top/or/bottom" parameter, defining which of both fields will be thrown away & interpolated: Same framerate = one field doomed.
A bobber does the same, but after each frame inserts another frame that is based on the previously thrown-away field: Framerate doubled by not dooming one field.

Or, perhaps like this:

Same-framerate-deinterlacing:
> source.Deinterlace(field=[top or bottom])

Double-framerate-deinterlacing (Bobbing):
> source.DoubleWeave().Deinterlace(field=[alternating])


So, obviously, decisive for the result is only the deinterlacing algo. And that's where MVbob is bringing an additional choice over TDeint, LeakKernel-XX, and Co. : all these are "only" motion-adaptive, i.e. in moving areas, they have to give up & can only do interpolation guesswork. MVBob currently is the only one taking the chance to search around for really-present image information that can be transported into those missing scanlines.

I'd say that, in theory, MVBob.SelectEither() should deliver superior image quality compared to the other methods, simply because the technique used for deinterlacing is more advanced.
Note that this doesnt say that the technique is already maxed-out ... MVBob does have its own problems just as well, so it's not necessarily "the best" of the available choices. The current implementation of the more advanced technique still has a few issues left over ... something should be done in that area.
__________________
- We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood -

My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!)
Didée is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2006, 04:38   #9  |  Link
Chainmax
Huh?
 
Chainmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 3,103
Thanks for the explananation, Didée .
__________________
Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
Chainmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2006, 08:37   #10  |  Link
Seed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainmax View Post
MVBob and its variants are bobbers: they deinterlace to double the original framerate. What I'm asking about is same-framerate deinterlacers.
Didee has explained nicely. What I mean is mvbob.selecteither method.

While on this interlaced material processing department, I am often affected by "highest-quality-itis syndrome", and uses
mvBob, temporal or spatial-temporal denoising filters, SeparateFields, SelectEvery(4, 0, 3), Weave method for intermediate deinterlacing of interlaced footage. That is when I leave my PC running overnight
Seed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 02:46   #11  |  Link
Didée
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainmax View Post
I'm only interested in the best quality short of interlaced encoding. I guess that still means TDeint+EEDI2 then,
Check this.
__________________
- We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood -

My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!)
Didée is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 03:57   #12  |  Link
Trixter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainmax View Post
MVBob and its variants are bobbers: they deinterlace to double the original framerate. What I'm asking about is same-framerate deinterlacers.
The problem with same-rate deinterlacers is that you will be throwing away half the motion no matter how you process it. For material shot on video, it's unacceptable -- the end result always looks "computery" (terrible phrase, I know). 60Hz interlaced material that has been same-frame deinterlaced, no matter the process, now has judder during horizontal pans and generally looks cheap, IMO.

My first full-field capture device was an IOMega Buz (remember those?) from 1998 which was essentially a very high quality Zoran MJPEG capture device coupled with some truly sh*tty software drivers. The input was awesome but the drivers didn't pay attention to field order and some captures were BFF and others were TFF. To fix the problem, I attempted deinterlacing every single clip (both field duplication and field blending) but you could clearly see, on the Buz's video output hooked up to a television, that it destroyed the smooth motion I had just captured. I couldn't live with that, so I invested in a Pinnacle device (with the same chipset, heh) that had proper drivers that worked.

So all this rambling has a point: What footage do you have where same-frame deinterlacing is the "best" option?
Trixter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 04:00   #13  |  Link
Trixter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seed View Post
I am often affected by "highest-quality-itis syndrome", and uses
mvBob, temporal or spatial-temporal denoising filters, SeparateFields, SelectEvery(4, 0, 3), Weave method for intermediate deinterlacing of interlaced footage. That is when I leave my PC running overnight
Overnight? I just finished up a PAL->NTSC transcode for 3 hours of footage -- it took two 3GHz machines 5 solid days (that's 240 CPU hours) to complete! But my transcodes look MUCH better than the Sony DSC-1024 we've got here, so nobody is complaining
Trixter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 11:14   #14  |  Link
Seed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixter View Post
Overnight? I just finished up a PAL->NTSC transcode for 3 hours of footage -- it took two 3GHz machines 5 solid days (that's 240 CPU hours) to complete! But my transcodes look MUCH better than the Sony DSC-1024 we've got here, so nobody is complaining
Mine is a 3Ghz (overclocked) machine too, but my clips are edited in 5-10 minutes sequences and compiled into a 10-20 chapters DVD.

BTW, I was also an ex-user of IOMega Buz . Yea, good hardware, bad driver and ugly support! Luckily 1n 1998 my required final output was VCD, and TMpegEnc did a nice job of deinterlacing and encoding. I later switched to a Philips SAA 7134 chipset capture card and never looked back. Indeed it is still my capture card via S-video input.
Seed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 11:36   #15  |  Link
Seed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didée View Post
Note that this doesnt say that the technique is already maxed-out ... The current implementation of the more advanced technique still has a few issues left over ... something should be done in that area.
Your SoonToComeBob() looks pretty promising. Though as you said no technique can claim to have "maxed out" in this smart-bobbing area, I eagerly await it. I hope "soon" means within a few weeks
Seed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 12:07   #16  |  Link
check
phjbdpcrjlj2sb3h
 
check's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,692
I assume this new bobber will be as slow as paint peeling? It just wouldn't feel right otherwise
check is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 15:52   #17  |  Link
Seed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
The topic title keeps changing. i'm sorry to say that the current tilte "Plain deinterlacing or Bob+SelectEvery: what do you prefer and why" is not quite appropriate. TDeint (with or without EEDI2) is a very sophisticated deinterlacer and will do a much better job of deinterlacing than a dumb/not-so-smart bobber +SelectEvery
Seed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 17:29   #18  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
For me personaly i allways use Securebob it's a good Speed/Quality tradeof for me.
but the best Speed/Quality @ the moment wich sadly yet can't be used (at least no one wrote a custom allocator for it yet) is Nvidias Per Pixel Adaptive Motion Deinterlacer inside their Mpeg-2 Decoder (PureVideo) it has no problems to convert 1080i into double framerate progressive Video in Realtime (on the GPU) pretty exciting to see that in front of your eyes, quality isn't as good as tdeint tough

Tdeint with GPU support that would be the revolution
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 21st October 2006 at 17:41.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2006, 18:13   #19  |  Link
Didée
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,394
IMO, SecureDeint is too anxious with its motion masking. Avoiding motion artefacts is good and all, but if it comes at the cost of many "in fact static" areas still keeping bobobobobbing, then it's not a good tradeoff.

Motion masking of the upcoming upproach is fully adaptive to local complexity, like my unheared proposal in the TDeint thread. Works like a charm, nonetheless. Wrapping it out ala SecureDeint won't be a problem.
__________________
- We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood -

My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!)
Didée is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2006, 14:37   #20  |  Link
WorBry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,181
Hi Didee,

In testing your ‘SoonToComeBob’, I thought you might be interested (as I would) in seeing how it fares with this clip, which I think is as good a ‘deinterlace stress test’ as any.

http://rapidshare.com/files/229055/T..._YV12_3sec.avi

It’s sample from one of the reference D1 576i25 sequences (src6_ref__625) at

ftp://ftp.crc.ca/crc/vqeg/TestSequences/Reference/

I converted the original 8 bit YUV4:2:2 (UYVY or YUY2) sequence (Top Field First) toYV12 (FFDShow-HuffYuv) via RawSource and ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true) and used a 3 second sample as the source for testing:

MVBob (latest public version 14.9.06)
SecureBob
TDeint-EEDI2
SmoothDeinterlace

I intentionally sampled the clip to include a scene change. After deinterlacing I resized to 720x544 (Lancozos3).

As expected, MVBob and SecureBob are rather more effective in avoiding residual interlacing artifacts, most noticeable with the white road line and around the captions in the areas of fast background motion. Here are grabs of frame 102:

http://rapidshare.com/files/230193/F...ob_14.9.06.jpg

http://rapidshare.com/files/230258/F...Secure_Bob.jpg

http://rapidshare.com/files/230342/F...eint_EEDI2.jpg

http://rapidshare.com/files/230416/F...ooth_Deint.jpg

However, on stepping through the frames, it will be seen that MVBob and SecureBob are rather more susceptible to modulation (swelling) in the height of the captions with some bobbing of the strip margin. Of course, this is barely noticeable on normal playback, but is it what you are referring to by ‘bobbing of static areas’?

Last edited by WorBry; 22nd October 2006 at 14:49.
WorBry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.