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Old 17th December 2015, 00:22   #34701  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I've come across a few scenes in some NTSC DVDs where the madVR IVTC algorithm freaks out and drops the 3:2 pattern and goes unknown before recovering when the shot changes. There are usually a lot of shallow angle horizontal lines present when this happens, like the siding on a house, or tiles on a background wall. Is it possible to restrict what madVR's IVTC algorithm looks for, or to force only a certain pattern, like 3:2, to reduce the chances of it getting lost?

FWIW, I've never seen it have a problem with HD 1080i60 3:2 content.
That's usually when fades or other transitions were mastered at 30 fps instead of 24.
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Old 17th December 2015, 04:48   #34702  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
That's usually when fades or other transitions were mastered at 30 fps instead of 24.
Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.

Last edited by Stereodude; 17th December 2015 at 05:13.
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Old 17th December 2015, 06:52   #34703  |  Link
Warner306
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Can someone tell if there is any difference at all between choosing "disable calibration controls for this display" and "this display is already calibrated?" I have one display that had calibration controls disabled. Setting it to "this display is already calibrated" seemed to change the picture slightly, even though I expected no change. I thought the gamma might be different. No other checkboxes are checked.

Are the same gamma ramps used in both cases? The difference could be in my head.
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Old 17th December 2015, 07:40   #34704  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Can someone tell if there is any difference at all between choosing "disable calibration controls for this display" and "this display is already calibrated?"
I believe madVR does some extra gamma processing in the latter case, on the theory that if your display isn't calibrated, it's probably not worth bothering. I asked madshi once, but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.
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Old 17th December 2015, 08:14   #34705  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.
Yeah, it happens with a lot of my DVD mpeg-2 content as well. I've turned off IVTC to address the issue. It doesn't look as good, but I don't run into any problems. I doubt it will ever be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
I believe madVR does some extra gamma processing in the latter case, on the theory that if your display isn't calibrated, it's probably not worth bothering. I asked madshi once, but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.
I've enabled it on my end and it does make a difference. My monitor is SRGB, but I've set it to 709 in the list and DVD content which uses a different colorspace is different with it on/off. Not really sure if it's supposed to be on or not. It does take some of the redness out of the image though for SD content.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 17th December 2015 at 08:17.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:39   #34706  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.
first of all this sample isn't flagged interlaced for madVR.

the disc has a "Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown" flag the disc is most likely soft telecine and there is simply nothing to do with the stream.
and the next strange thing is the VFR flag and the missing matrix and stuff like this.

so by default madVR isn't asked to deinterlace and if it doesn't use any deinterlacing everything is fine.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:13   #34707  |  Link
Stereodude
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
first of all this sample isn't flagged interlaced for madVR.
And your point? Not all DVDs are flagged correctly, or will indicate to the decoder and madVR what they really are.

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so by default madVR isn't asked to deinterlace and if it doesn't use any deinterlacing everything is fine.
No, it isn't. You can't get proper 24p playback of the original DVD without forcing deinterlacing = on and film mode because madVR gets told it's got a framerate of 29.97. Sure, if you process the video stream to remove the soft pulldown flag and were to remux it into a mkv or something where the stream is marked as progressive then it will playback fine, but I'm talking about playing back the DVD as is.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:19   #34708  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
Yeah, it happens with a lot of my DVD mpeg-2 content as well. I've turned off IVTC to address the issue. It doesn't look as good, but I don't run into any problems. I doubt it will ever be fixed.
Admittedly I don't watch a lot of DVDs. It's nearly all Blu-ray and OTA ATSC HDTV. However, recently I started watching Castle, which isn't on Blu-ray, so I've now got a fair number of DVDs under my belt. I think I've seen 3 times so far up through S05E20 or so where the IVTC algorithm got confused. I'm not about to disable it.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:51   #34709  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
And your point? Not all DVDs are flagged correctly, or will indicate to the decoder and madVR what they really are.

No, it isn't. You can't get proper 24p playback of the original DVD without forcing deinterlacing = on and film mode because madVR gets told it's got a framerate of 29.97. Sure, if you process the video stream to remove the soft pulldown flag and were to remux it into a mkv or something where the stream is marked as progressive then it will playback fine, but I'm talking about playing back the DVD as is.
feel free to step through each frame IVTC isn't needed for this file.
not sure if madVR is ignoring repeate flags or things like this but the IVTC algo still sees the 3:2 pattern that's not present when deinterlaced or played progressive.
the output is already 23p the "only" issue is that madVR isn't switching to 23p and stays at 60 hz because source filter says it is 29p.

don't get me wrong madVR IVTC shouldn't fail in this case but this file is not a typical DVD. i guess the muxer did something to it but this is just a guess.

there are still bugs with this sample SM is not working properly it is triggered at 23 hz.
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Old 17th December 2015, 15:51   #34710  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
feel free to step through each frame IVTC isn't needed for this file.
That all depends on if the decoder honors the soft pulldown flag or not and then what it does after that (deinterlace / pass as interlaced / etc).

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the output is already 23p the "only" issue is that madVR isn't switching to 23p and stays at 60 hz because source filter says it is 29p.
Again, it depends on what the decoder does. The various HW decoders all do slightly different things. For example, the Quicksync HW decoder will output that clip as progressive 29.97Hz video without a repeated frame and madVR will only find a 2:2 pattern. avcodec (software decoding) seems to be needed for proper handling of this and many other DVDs as well as HD 1080i MPEG-2 content.

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don't get me wrong madVR IVTC shouldn't fail in this case but this file is not a typical DVD.
From what I've seen it is a typical NTSC DVD. Most DVDs I've tested behave the same way, and I'm not talking about anime or small studio releases of non-theatrical content, but major studio releases of recent theatrical motion pictures. A few will indicate to the processing chain that they are interlaced, but not many.

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i guess the muxer did something to it but this is just a guess.
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:17   #34711  |  Link
Aktan
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
It doesn't matter if you change containers if the same demuxer is being used. Which demuxer are you using?
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:29   #34712  |  Link
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i tested now quicksync, dxva native (AMD) and software. all output 23p flagged as 29p.

there is no repeated frame in the stream and no waved either.

Quote:
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
correct but why is VFR and missing all stream flags except range and interlaced?

adding FPS=23 should be an ok workaround for now for soft telecine DVDs. it would be nice if the source filter will do this by default with a disc that has clear flags like these:

Code:
Video
ID                             : 224 (0xE0)
Format                         : MPEG Video
Format version                 : Version 2
Format profile                 : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP          : Yes
Format settings, Matrix        : Custom
Format settings, GOP           : Variable
Duration                       : 15mn 8s
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 7 726 Kbps
Maximum bit rate               : 9 800 Kbps
Width                          : 720 pixels
Height                         : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) fps
Standard                       : Component
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 8 bits
Scan type                      : Progressive
Scan order                     : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode               : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.932
Time code of first frame       : 01:00:05:00
Time code source               : Group of pictures header
Stream size                    : 837 MiB (82%)
Color primaries                : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics       : BT.601
Matrix coefficients            : BT.601
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:55   #34713  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Aktan View Post
It doesn't matter if you change containers if the same demuxer is being used. Which demuxer are you using?
The LAV filters (internal with MPC-HC 1.7.10)
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Old 17th December 2015, 17:11   #34714  |  Link
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i tested now quicksync, dxva native (AMD) and software. all output 23p flagged as 29p.

there is no repeated frame in the stream and no waved either.
I'm not sure I agree with you on all those test cases / permutations. If what you're saying is true there would be no 3:2 pattern for madVR to see (after enabling deinterlacing with forced film mode turned on).
It would see a 2:2 pattern due to the progressive content. Using quicksync HW decoding it definitely finds a 2:2 pattern, which is not what it finds using software (avcodec). Further, the IVTC algorithm wouldn't get confused and pass combed frames if it was being fed progressive frames.

Quote:
correct but why is VFR and missing all stream flags except range and interlaced?

adding FPS=23 should be an ok workaround for now for soft telecine DVDs. it would be nice if the source filter will do this by default with a disc that has clear flags like these:
Regardless, you currently can't play it back correctly at 24/1.001Hz unless you enable deinterlacing and forced film mode (IVTC) in madVR. And, the IVTC detection pukes twice in this scene.

Last edited by Stereodude; 17th December 2015 at 17:13.
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Old 17th December 2015, 20:07   #34715  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'm not sure I agree with you on all those test cases / permutations. If what you're saying is true there would be no 3:2 pattern for madVR to see (after enabling deinterlacing with forced film mode turned on).
It would see a 2:2 pattern due to the progressive content. Using quicksync HW decoding it definitely finds a 2:2 pattern, which is not what it finds using software (avcodec). Further, the IVTC algorithm wouldn't get confused and pass combed frames if it was being fed progressive frames.
i agree i have no clue why madVR is able to see a 3:2 pattern. there is no combed frame with disabled deinterlacing.

but why would it get confused in the first place this file is clearly soft telecine this means the repeated field is bit identical to another field.

Quote:
Regardless, you currently can't play it back correctly at 24/1.001Hz unless you enable deinterlacing and forced film mode (IVTC) in madVR. And, the IVTC detection pukes twice in this scene.
it works flawlessly with disabled deinterlacing at 23p here for me.
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:13   #34716  |  Link
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Hello again!

Thanks a lot for answering my question about my crash log file.

After your response, I think that something might be off with my drivers, because my laptop has drivers from Acer and not from Nvidia, so they might not be compatible with something.

Nvidia drivers return blue screen 5 minutes after installing, video memory error, so something might be wrong on my side.

I cannot wait to upgrade to a laptop with a gtx980 desktop inside




Now I have another question or two for people who can help.

I have dithering set to error diffusion 2 without colored noise or changing patterns.

1.But does LAV video filter apply another layer of dithering?

2.Another question : I might want to disable the entire dithering process, is it possible, or would it degrade image quality?

3.And another thing: How can I set in mpc-hc the player to copy the entire file playing in RAM? I have 16 gb of RAM and most things I do never use more than 2-4gb, so I have enough to spare, and I would want my videos in RAM while playing for better decoding, and maybe reduction of micro stutter (?).
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:54   #34717  |  Link
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1.But does LAV video filter apply another layer of dithering?
No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).

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2.Another question : I might want to disable the entire dithering process, is it possible, or would it degrade image quality?
Dithering improves image quality by preventing banding artifacts that arise from conversion to integer in the final stage of the video rendering pipeline. Disabling it will only make things worse.

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3.And another thing: How can I set in mpc-hc the player to copy the entire file playing in RAM? I have 16 gb of RAM and most things I do never use more than 2-4gb, so I have enough to spare, and I would want my videos in RAM while playing for better decoding, and maybe reduction of micro stutter (?).
You won't get "better decoding" or "reduction of micro stutter" by doing that. Whether the file is played from RAM or disk has absolutely zero effect on decoding. It doesn't have any effect on the timing of video presentation either, because it's massively buffered at various stages of the video chain anyway precisely to avoid such issues. Note that LAV Splitter, IIRC, will by default buffer a large portion of the video anyway (hundreds of megabytes).
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:33   #34718  |  Link
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No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).
Thats only half-true, it dithers whenever it reduces the bitdepth - well at least on the most common optimized conversion paths.
But it doesn't dither when you use madVR and didn't screw up the LAV settings (ie. don't disable any output formats).
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:36   #34719  |  Link
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).



Dithering improves image quality by preventing banding artifacts that arise from conversion to integer in the final stage of the video rendering pipeline. Disabling it will only make things worse.



You won't get "better decoding" or "reduction of micro stutter" by doing that. Whether the file is played from RAM or disk has absolutely zero effect on decoding. It doesn't have any effect on the timing of video presentation either, because it's massively buffered at various stages of the video chain anyway precisely to avoid such issues. Note that LAV Splitter, IIRC, will by default buffer a large portion of the video anyway (hundreds of megabytes).
Thanks a lot for all the data!

About the image in the first post, where you fiind out what type of input your monitor accepts, if I have 4:4:4 what does it mean, and how do I make use of it when using mpc-hc and madVR?
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Old 18th December 2015, 01:01   #34720  |  Link
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About the image in the first post, where you fiind out what type of input your monitor accepts, if I have 4:4:4 what does it mean, and how do I make use of it when using mpc-hc and madVR?
Please read Chroma Subsampling.

You do not need to do anything to take advantage of a 4:4:4 display, it simply means you have full resolution chroma. If you have a 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 display chroma scaling options are less important.
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