madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by huhn

i give you the none complicated example missing out a lot of parts:

3840/21*9=~1646
that means you are upscaling an 3840x1646 image to 3840x2160. that's a lot of work and with doubling not much fun for the GPU.
but it's get's better projector are usually 4096x2160 so if you mess up the settings it's doomsday depending on your setting you may double 3840 to reach 4096.

Ok, I understand. You actually lose a lot of pixels by cropping the black bars. A safe setting for image upscaling with 4K content that doesn't use image doubling would help.

Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by bcec

That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

There are many other 4k rescans from older films, where colors are very accurate (bladerunner, ghostbusters, etc). Warner Bros is clearly applying teal/orange to make things pop. If movie has that look originally (for instance Transformers), then I have no problem. But this change from original material needs to be outlawed.


There's nothing wrong with MadVR right now, it is reproducing The Prestige uhd disk as accurately as it can. However, as I said, UHD release has an awful teal+orange color grading applied to it.
prestige bluray
prestige uhd

I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Warner306

Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.

this beats the point of an anamoprhic lens if you can't use most of the pixels. the other very important part an anamoprhic lens it gives you is more brightness you don't have to over throw.
so you should always use as much pixel as possible.

[Alexkral]

Originally Posted by bcec

That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.

[bcec]

Originally Posted by Warner306

I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.

Nolan pulled the same stuff for 2001 re-release.
Warner is doing it again for the upcoming Batman releases (see screenshots)
This is done on purpose. Teal & Orange grading is a thing in hollywood nowadays (read more about why they do it here). I am ok with the artistic choice for a new movie, but I dislike it when they retroactively apply it to an older one that did not have this look before.

Originally Posted by Alexkral

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.

There may be other things going on perhaps, but these movies have been regraded with the teal-orange look.

[Charky]

Originally Posted by Alexkral

Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.

Well, first, because color grading is a shot by shot process, and sometimes even changes in the same shot. You don't color grade an entire movie (or "uncolor grade" it) with a single LUT or a set of slider, that's just not how it works. It would look good in the scene you take as a reference point and bad in every other one.

Even if you created a system that scans every frame and changes colors "on the fly" (a kind of "dynamic color grading"), the end result would probably be shitty anyway because your picture is not raw "flat" neutral footage, but already color graded. One of the many problems I can think of is that teal & orange color grading often purposely crushes blacks you obviously can't "uncrush" with color balancing : the details are already lost. Maybe a talented colorist could mitigate the teal & orange look by manually recoloring the movie shot by shot, but I don't trust an algorithm to understand what looks good to human eyes. Anyway, if you have an algorithm that can do that, I suggest you call Adobe, they'll buy it for sure

Of course, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but in the meantime, I'll take a carefully graded teal & orange picture over an awkwardly automatically desaturated/recolored one a million times.

Originally Posted by bcec

This is not true, there are many features in madVR that enhances the image by changing the source material in one way or another. For instance de-ringing, denoise, thin edges, crispen edges, and the list goes on. It doesn't simply display the given data, it manipulates it in different ways.

These features should only be used to restore a picture degraded by several steps of compression. With the exception of denoise/add grain, they don't really mess with the original artistic intent. By contrast, IMO, modifying the movie colors is like giving the director the middle finger.

[mclingo]

would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.

[chros]

Originally Posted by Village Guy

I have been testing HDR on the latest build passing thru metadata. HDR mode kicks in perfectly, unfortunatley it gets stuck in HDR mode until I reboot the PC. Is this a known anomaly?

I have the same with FSE, did you use FSE? If so then try fullscreen window mode (FSW).

[huhn]

that why i said try a hard clip 3d LUT.

the bigger meaning behind that was to measure the white point using the same scene and comparing them.

[Charky]

Originally Posted by mclingo

would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.

That most likely won't work, because as I said, color grading is a shot by shot process.

Take Interstellar. This page has comparison screenshots between 1080p & 4K releases : https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/...-ray-does.html

You can see that some shots are heavily altered, while some others are not modified at all.

Even if modifying white balance actually worked on the shots that most bother you (and TBH I highly doubt the result would look natural...), every other shot in the movie would probably end up blue-ish or looking unnatural in a way or another.

[tp4tissue]

The Human Touch, ruining our movies.. Damn you colorists, y you need so much teal..


if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.


The bulk of the problem is most likely the studio upgrading to very different grading monitors . The new sony and dolby hdr sets. There's going to be a rough patch in releases for a while, before they dial it in.

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.

Read one post above yours. This is often done scene-by-scene, and such a broad approach would ruin the scenes that don't have this treatment.

[tp4tissue]

It would not RUIN scenes. You guys are taking this out of proportion.

There is NO RIGHT COLOR. If the colorist graded it more green this time around, well that's that, It looked good to him, he lives and breaths color, his taste and experiences are highly refined in this area, I'll take his word for it.

Now, on our end, +500 +1000k is a good compromise. We are not even that sensitive in the blue range, that small a difference on a scene that's mostly blue won't be perceived that differently.

The bulk of the lard-butts sitting at home complaining about teal when they don't even own a colorimeter.

[mclingo]

maybe they've got colourometers...

[tp4tissue]

There are 3 possibilites.

The FIRST disc release was wrong

The SECOND disc release was wrong

Neither the First, Nor the Second release was wrong. They're all gud'


What if you've only seen 2 women in your whole life. Which one is uglier.

We ask our colorist pal, hey doug, you've seen 1000s of women, the Green one is good ?, Yes Todd, I think the green one is swell.

Overall, color is a preference, So at-home critiques are valid. However, Whatever comes out of the studio, THAT is among the most informed choices, because the guy doing it is a professional.


Similarly, in machining, back when hss blades were hand sharpened/ grinded, there was always this guy who would angle the relief angles a little differently, because over time, his experience told him to do that.

Same with the colorist who decided m0ar Green.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

It would not RUIN scenes. You guys are taking this out of proportion.

If you apply a blanket colour temperature correction to a whole movie because you don't like how the colour grading was changed only in some scenes, then yes you potentially would ruin the other scenes. Just take a look at the link posted by Charky, it's a perfect example.
You can't keep mentioning all the time that people need to invest in a colorimeter because calibration is essential etc., and then argue that changing colour temperature for a whole movie wouldn't ruin it, that's completely illogical.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

There is NO RIGHT COLOR. If the colorist graded it more green this time around, well that's that

People have been trying to explain that this not how it's done. There's no "let's grade this one more green overall". Which is why there's no way to 'correct' it with a single setting change.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

The bulk of the lard-butts sitting at home complaining about teal when they don't even own a colorimeter.

You don't need a colorimeter to be able to spot a difference in colour grading in two different versions of a same scene on the same screen. Even if your calibration is wrong, you still see the image has changed in a certain way.

[Charky]

It's not just a matter of personal preference, the colors you will end up with if you modify blindly your whole picture with color temp or color balance will mostly always look worse than what you started with.

Just look at skin tones : colorists are aware that a picture won't look natural if skin tones are greenish or redish or blueish. So even a heavily teal & orange LUT has to be tweaked to achieve natural looking skin tones. Every NLE software has a way to do secondary color correction to achieve this.

Any way you look at it, tinkering your whole picture with white balance just to change the global "hue" of the movie, and attempting to "counter" an artistic intent that, even if you don't like it, has been carefully crafted shot by shot, is probably a bad idea and will get you weird results. You might as well put a light blue colored candy wrapper on your projector's lens

Originally Posted by el Filou

You don't need a colorimeter to be able to spot a difference in colour grading in two different versions of a same scene on the same screen. Even if your calibration is wrong, you still see the image has changed in a certain way.

You could even say that even with a dE of 4 or 5 (which is worse than most displays, even out of the box, when they are set with their most accurate preset), teal is still teal

[Alexkral]

I had noticed that in Interstellar but I didn't think it was due to the grading. Anyway I still think that this is more accentuated because of the way in which the color correction is done in ICtCp, and even more so if no gamut mapping is done. What I specifically refer to is this:

SDR
HDR to SDR (ICtCp)
HDR to SDR (RGB)

[KoKlusz]

Originally Posted by bcec

Nolan pulled the same stuff for 2001 re-release.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...8#post14974628

The trailer is a scan from the new print Nolan had struck from the original negative (pin-registration is a giveaway). This print stock is almost certainly 65mm Kodak 2383, which is the most common print stock and Nolan’s stock of choice for all of his celluloid showings.

Part of Kodak 2383’s characteristics include a warm push in the highlight regions and a blue/teal push to shadow regions. Using a 2383 Look-Up-Table on footage scanned/encoded as Cineon Log shows this effect. The interpositives used for the 4K releases of Nolan’s work, particularly the new copies of Inception and Dunkirk, show this effect clearly.

Also, UHD version is not affected since it's a scan from original camera negative, and not interpositive.

Originally Posted by bcec

Warner is doing it again for the upcoming Batman releases (see screenshots)

Again, UHD version is unaffected, it seems like Warner colorist is doing something wrong when converting BT2020 to REC709. Although this been happening for a while now (IIRC remastered blurays of Matrix trilogy and 2001 also have this problem).

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

There are 3 possibilites.

The FIRST disc release was wrong

The SECOND disc release was wrong

Neither the First, Nor the Second release was wrong. They're all gud'

But we know for a fact that the first release was wrong. UHD discs are far more faithful to the way these movies where intended to be seen.

[Siso]

Originally Posted by KoKlusz

UHD discs are far more faithful to the way these movies where intended to be seen.

I'm not so sure about that tho. Some blu-rays are closer to the colors in the cinema - for example Avengers: Infinity War. Or I may be wrong.