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Old 17th March 2013, 08:33   #18021  |  Link
G_M_C
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Chipping in on the DXVA /power usage / performance discussion:
My PC has a Q9650 CPU and ive fitted an MSI PE HD7850, coming from a HD5770. The CPU runs on stock speeds. I also make use of an SSD and low-RPM / green data drives. I output via HDMI to my receiver, which has a Panasonic plasma connected to it.

I'v downclocked and downvolted the GPU. This way it uses less energy. Accoring to my measurements the power usage of the downclocked 7850 is about the same as my 5770 used. This is because the HD7xxx series has much more performance/watt, uses almost no power in idle mode and of course the downclocking/downvolting.

In my installation is LAV filters/madVR/MPC-HT.
I have LAV filters installed and use CPU decoding only, and have madVR use the GPU for itself. This has several advantages:

Firstly LAV in CPU mode is -to me at least- a 'set-and-forget' installation. It always works, decodes everything I have which also inclused high-bitdepth encodes. It is rock stable for me.

Secondly software decoding is efficient to such a degree that my (not to recent) CPU doesn't even flex. That means the CPU doesn't need to be full-on, and as a result uses less energy and doesn't run hot.

On top of that this means that madVR can use the GPU for itself.

The GPU swithes to the downclocked/downvolted '3d-speed profile', without having DXVA interfering as some of the above have seen happen.

And even when downclocked/downvolted, my GPU hasn't been over 63% usage (43 degrees c and 35% fanspeed = no noise). And that was when testing a 1080i50 BBC-HD capture and madVR deinterlacing plus smoothmotion, using jinc 3 + AR (chroma) jinc 4 + AR (image) resulting in a 1080p50. A configuration/situation not often used to be honest (smoothmotion has no advantage here imho). [added] In normal situations GPU usage is approx 30%-40%.

My conclusion is that using CPU decoding and a relatively recent GPU is a good option. You can control both through BIOS and other tools, set their speeds/powerusage to your needs individually. Imho this is the easiest '-works-without-having-to-think-about-it-even-my-girlfriend-can-do-it-' installation you can have.

Last edited by G_M_C; 17th March 2013 at 09:08.
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Old 17th March 2013, 08:54   #18022  |  Link
Dodgexander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G_M_C View Post
Chipping in on the DXVA /power usage / performance discussion:
My PC has a Q9650 CPU and ive fitted an MSI PE HD7850, coming form a HD5770. The CPU runs on stock speeds. I also make use of an SSD and low-RPM / green data drives. I output via HDMI to my receiver, which has a Panasonic plasma connected to it.

I'v downclocked and downvolted the GPU. This way it uses less energy. Accoring to my measurements the power usage of the downclocked 7850 is about the same as my 5770 used. This is because the HD7xxx series has much more performance/watt, uses almost no power in idle mode and of course the downclocking/downvolting.

In my installation is LAV filters/madVR/MPC-HT.
I have LAV filters installed and use CPU decoding only, and have madVR use the GPU for itself. This has several advantages:

Firstly LAV in CPU mode is -to me at least- a 'set-and-forget' installation. It always works, decodes everything I have wich also inclused high-bitdepth encodes. It is rock stable for me.

Secondly software decoding is efficient to such a degree that my (not to recent) CPU doesn't even flex. That means the CPU doesn't need to be full-on, and as a result uses less energy and doesn't run hot.

On top of that this means that madVR can use the GPU for itself.

The GPU swithes to the downclocked/downvolted '3d-speed profile', without having DXVA interfering as some of the above have seen happen.

And even when downclocked/downvolted, my GPU hasn't been over 63% usage (43 degrees c and 35% fanspeed = no noise). And that was when testing a 1080i50 BBC-HD capture and madVR deinterlacing plus smoothmotion, using jinc 3 + AR (chroma) jinc 4 + AR (image) resulting in a 1080p50. A configuration/situation not often used to be honest (smoothmotion has no advantage here imho).

My conclusion is that using CPU decoding and a relatively recent GPU is a good option. You can control both through BIOS and other tools, set their speeds/powerusage to your needs individually. Imho this is the easiest '-works-without-having-to-think-about-it-even-my-girlfriend-can-do-it-' installation you can have.
Agreed

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Old 17th March 2013, 12:25   #18023  |  Link
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Anyone had a random black frame appear whilst playing? I'm running Overlay and FSE with Smooth motion on an Intel HD 3000 using 2932 drivers. Seems to be the same thing that TheShadowRunner mentioned with switching between windowed and FSE mode although it happens after some extended viewing for me. I've got a number of things to rule out but I think I'll start with flushing settings, just wondering if any sharp eyed viewers have seen the same thing and fixed it.
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Old 17th March 2013, 14:33   #18024  |  Link
DragonQ
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Yes it happens occasionally when using Smooth Motion for me.
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Old 17th March 2013, 14:39   #18025  |  Link
olli66
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hi guys,
there are so many threads about this topic...hard to get an overview...so I hope you don't mind me asking some questions that may have been asked and answered many times before....
Even after a lot of research i don't quite understand the thing with the color range. I have a Panasonic VT20. I assume via HDMI it has limited color range. So I set my AVR to limited. madvr to limited and normally I would have thought I set my NVIDIA controls to limited, too. But I heard to set the desktop color range to full. Is this correct? Will madvr work best this way and the colors will be correct?
Next issue I still don't quite understand. My mkvs finally run smoothly after setting up madvr. Now my display automoatically switches to 1080p/24, 1080p/23, for my recordings with camcoder to 1080p/50 and so on. Finally mkv movies play smoothly. But several times when watching a movie there is a little "skip" in the picture. No dropped frame or something like this. Just a picture seems to be missing. What causes this and how could it be fixed?
I read a lot about the upscaling functions. Still don't know which settings are best and most recommended. Also there was one thing with further color correction but this seemed quite complicated...are there any "easy" guides or do I need a color measuring device for this procedure?
thanks for your tips
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Old 17th March 2013, 15:24   #18026  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
hi guys,
there are so many threads about this topic...hard to get an overview...so I hope you don't mind me asking some questions that may have been asked and answered many times before....
Even after a lot of research i don't quite understand the thing with the color range. I have a Panasonic VT20. I assume via HDMI it has limited color range. So I set my AVR to limited. madvr to limited and normally I would have thought I set my NVIDIA controls to limited, too. But I heard to set the desktop color range to full. Is this correct? Will madvr work best this way and the colors will be correct?
Next issue I still don't quite understand. My mkvs finally run smoothly after setting up madvr. Now my display automoatically switches to 1080p/24, 1080p/23, for my recordings with camcoder to 1080p/50 and so on. Finally mkv movies play smoothly.
first of all put ur avr to direct untouched or what ever the name is.

if ur display is a limited range display u have two options.

1. put the madvr output to unlimited and set the graphic card to limited. now the desktop and the video are limited und totally fine but the video was changed from limited to unlimited to limited.

2. put the madvr output to limited and set the graphic card to unlimited. now ur desktop colors are wrong becource ur tv ignores the the extra informations in the unlimited stream but the video is fine and was never changed from limited to unlimited this is a little bit better then option 1.

if ur display is unlimited.

put madvr to unlimited and the graphic card desktop and video is now fine.

same tv can handle both unlimited and limited for exsample my philiphs tv needs unlimted in pc mode and limited in the rest. try a test picture like this http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/mikeyurkus/0-255BWDVD.png

Quote:
I read a lot about the upscaling functions. Still don't know which settings are best and most recommended.
jinc 3 ar for both is recommended if ur card can handle it. but it is all about taste so u have to figure this out by ur self.
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Old 17th March 2013, 20:35   #18027  |  Link
zn
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after long time of trouble shooting finally I found why madvr was never working

madVR 0.79 (and older versions) give me error "creating Direct3D device failed (8876086a)"
madVR 0.80 .. 0.86.1 just black screen (no video, nor error message), and mpc-hc freeze computer after I try to close it

solution (win2003 r2 x86) :
[win]+[r] dxdiag > display > enable acceleration

I suggest to add some information to readme file, and may be fix this 0.80 regression (not showing any error like 0.79 and older versions)
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Old 17th March 2013, 22:06   #18028  |  Link
Ihmemies
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I once had problems updating from older madvr (mpc-hc crashing instantly), finally tried "reset to default settings.bat" and it solved the problem.

Smooth motion looks very nice, I have a 60Hz 30" 2560x1600 display and I don't notice judder anymore. I earlier used a terrible avisynth script which did some frame blending, but the results looked especially bad with checkered shirts and some other stuff. I saw no ghosting with smooth motion enabled, maybe it's there but it's nothing compared to what I had with the avisynth script.

Since I need to upscale all videos and original pixels are lost I didn't notice any sharpness difference between smooth motion on/off. But I will definitely keep it always on because movies are unwatchable with 3:2 pulldown.

About GPU usage, I have HD6970 and without smooth motion I get ~21%, with ~27%. So basically no difference with gpu usage (as long it's under 99% I suppose it makes no difference) but very much improved motion quality.

Thanks for the great update and keep up the good work

Edit: for the first time I looked at madvr's osd and noticed there's one fropped frame every 30.04 - 30.06s, so roughly 0,14% of frames get dropped. I don't know what causes this but at least that isn't visible while watching videos

Last edited by Ihmemies; 17th March 2013 at 22:31.
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Old 18th March 2013, 05:48   #18029  |  Link
corporalgator
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According to Madshi, you should set the video card to full then madvr and the tv to limited. That lets you get black at 16 since Blu-rays don't go lower than that anyway, but also whiter than white that some blu-rays do have.

Madshi: I experienced a really weird issue. I finally decided to just disable my igpu since I was tired of all the blue-screens losing intel quicksync for decoding through lav and going with dxva copy-back. When I then went to play a video, I got horrible frame drops for a minute or so before the screen would turn green. I finally found the problem to be use a separate device for dxva processing. When I disabled it, everything went back to normal with no frame drops.
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:44   #18030  |  Link
olli66
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thanks guys, so I was right to set my NVIDIA desktop to full range and madvr to limited for best video playback (I don't care about desktop colors)
but what happens with these settiings if I use other software for playback? (Powerdvd for example)
also I could not find an option in my AVR that says "untouched", there is just limited and full color range so I put it to limited...
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Old 18th March 2013, 12:06   #18031  |  Link
DarkSpace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olli66 View Post
also I could not find an option in my AVR that says "untouched", there is just limited and full color range so I put it to limited...
In that case, why don't you set the it to full color range?
That way, you won't crush desktop colors, and you can set madVR to output full color range as well.

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Originally Posted by olli66 View Post
but what happens with these settiings if I use other software for playback? (Powerdvd for example)
Well, if you use the current setup, PowerDVD will most likely produce crushed color output to the TV. All will work, however, if you do as I suggested above and set everything to use the full color range.
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Old 18th March 2013, 13:44   #18032  |  Link
olli66
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when I set my AVR to full color range but my TV cannot display full color range then my tv will crush the colors from my understanding?
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Old 18th March 2013, 14:18   #18033  |  Link
corporalgator
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Originally Posted by olli66 View Post
when I set my AVR to full color range but my TV cannot display full color range then my tv will crush the colors from my understanding?
Yes, you want Madvr outputting limited. I used to have everything at full because my TV supported it, but then I lost whiter than white and blacks weren't what they were supposed to be.

Computer at full and everything else limited is the way to go. Once you set it up, grab some calibration slides, like these

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

and dial in black so that everything below 16 disappears and then get whites so you seesome above 235.
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Old 18th March 2013, 14:39   #18034  |  Link
DragonQ
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Why do BDs have WTW but not BTB? I thought the whole point was that either 0-255 or 16-235 was used, why would a mixture be used?
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Old 18th March 2013, 14:58   #18035  |  Link
corporalgator
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Why do BDs have WTW but not BTB? I thought the whole point was that either 0-255 or 16-235 was used, why would a mixture be used?
There's some debate as to whether the information is actually useful. Read this thread starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1240153/setting-contrast-with-spears-and-munsil-disc/420#post_18599222

You can just set it to 235 for white if you like.
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Old 18th March 2013, 15:13   #18036  |  Link
olli66
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thanks! just to be 100 percent sure: with "computer" you mean I should set NVIDIA control panel to full? how about my avr? my htpc goes into my avr and my avr outputs everything to my HDTV
those calibration slides are still needed when everything is set this way? is it for checking if everything is right or do I need to manually adjust some settings? how about powerdvd? I need madvr and powerdvd to run with correct color range without having to switch settings each time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
Yes, you want Madvr outputting limited. I used to have everything at full because my TV supported it, but then I lost whiter than white and blacks weren't what they were supposed to be.

Computer at full and everything else limited is the way to go. Once you set it up, grab some calibration slides, like these

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

and dial in black so that everything below 16 disappears and then get whites so you seesome above 235.
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Old 19th March 2013, 03:14   #18037  |  Link
corporalgator
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Originally Posted by olli66 View Post
thanks! just to be 100 percent sure: with "computer" you mean I should set NVIDIA control panel to full? how about my avr? my htpc goes into my avr and my avr outputs everything to my HDTV
those calibration slides are still needed when everything is set this way? is it for checking if everything is right or do I need to manually adjust some settings? how about powerdvd? I need madvr and powerdvd to run with correct color range without having to switch settings each time...
Yeah Nvidia to full, everything else limited. The calibration will be through changing the settings directly on your tv: brightness, contrast, etc.

This will leave your desktop colors crushed, but it's the trade-off for getting the correct colors out of movies.
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Old 19th March 2013, 06:48   #18038  |  Link
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That is completely wrong. There is nothing useful below black or above white. At most there will be specular highlights, which are not detail, and often what you will see is sensor noise/saturation, which should definitely not be visible.
Valid video ranges are 16-235. If you are using the PC for anything other than video playback, it will also give you the perception that video looks dull if you do this, because video white will be at a much lower level than white on the desktop.

In the madVR device properties, output should be set to PC levels (0-255) regardless of what levels your display accepts. What this option does, is fix the video levels to match your desktop output levels. It does this by discarding below black and above white - but that does not contain picture content, and is no longer even necessary for display calibration with flat panels. (only necessary with CRT)

If your display accepts it, you should send it a full range 0-255 signal via HDMI. Most displays will have a "video levels" or "black level" option if they support this - I can't think of anything that automatically switches and does not have a manual override. So if your TV doesn't have the option, it probably doesn't support it.
With Nvidia, the card will output a limited range 16-235 signal when connected via HDMI unless the display explicitly states that it can support a 0-255 signal. My Sony TV does, but it seems that most do not. There is no driver setting for this, but madNvLevelsTweaker.exe inside the madVR folder can force a 0-255 output if your display supports it.

The reason that you want to output 0-255 to the display is because everything on your PC is natively 0-255, and the 16-235 output from the card compresses the levels (rather than clipping them) which can introduce banding, because there are fewer levels of gradation.


Even if you are outputting 16-235 to your display through the graphics card, madVR itself should still be set to 0-255, as this matches the video levels to the desktop levels. As the desktop levels are being compressed to 16-235 in this case, it means that video is contained within the 16-235 range.
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Old 19th March 2013, 07:56   #18039  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
That is completely wrong. There is nothing useful below black or above white. At most there will be specular highlights, which are not detail, and often what you will see is sensor noise/saturation, which should definitely not be visible.
Valid video ranges are 16-235. If you are using the PC for anything other than video playback, it will also give you the perception that video looks dull if you do this, because video white will be at a much lower level than white on the desktop.

In the madVR device properties, output should be set to PC levels (0-255) regardless of what levels your display accepts. What this option does, is fix the video levels to match your desktop output levels. It does this by discarding below black and above white - but that does not contain picture content, and is no longer even necessary for display calibration with flat panels. (only necessary with CRT)

If your display accepts it, you should send it a full range 0-255 signal via HDMI. Most displays will have a "video levels" or "black level" option if they support this - I can't think of anything that automatically switches and does not have a manual override. So if your TV doesn't have the option, it probably doesn't support it.
With Nvidia, the card will output a limited range 16-235 signal when connected via HDMI unless the display explicitly states that it can support a 0-255 signal. My Sony TV does, but it seems that most do not. There is no driver setting for this, but madNvLevelsTweaker.exe inside the madVR folder can force a 0-255 output if your display supports it.

The reason that you want to output 0-255 to the display is because everything on your PC is natively 0-255, and the 16-235 output from the card compresses the levels (rather than clipping them) which can introduce banding, because there are fewer levels of gradation.


Even if you are outputting 16-235 to your display through the graphics card, madVR itself should still be set to 0-255, as this matches the video levels to the desktop levels. As the desktop levels are being compressed to 16-235 in this case, it means that video is contained within the 16-235 range.
and yet it looks better when forced to 16-235
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Old 19th March 2013, 07:58   #18040  |  Link
6233638
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and yet it looks better when forced to 16-235
Please post examples of content that has meaningful information above 235 if you have them.
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