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Old 4th July 2019, 16:26   #56781  |  Link
huhn
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there are multiply issues with that too.
you don't have PCIe 3 and so your ram should be faster then your PCIe 2.0.
the CPU speed could cripple it too but i doubt blackbar detection could effect it much because it is not the same program and you have more then 1 core there still worth investing.
the first consumer grade CPU with PCIe 3 was ivy bridge AFAIK.
and just have a look at the bus load.

you don't have to test HEVC and and HDR doesn't help here anyway h264 should be good enough.
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Old 4th July 2019, 22:03   #56782  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 converter
That would be compatible with AMD Navi, NVIDIA RTX, and Intel Gen11 (IceLake).
Don't bet on these converters, for example, alot of dp1.4 to hdmi 2.0 converts today will output the wrong gamma curve.
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Old 4th July 2019, 22:04   #56783  |  Link
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Has anyone tested 4K-> 8k madvr performance ? 1080ti enough ?
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Old 5th July 2019, 03:52   #56784  |  Link
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For which settings?

My 2080 Ti can do 4Kp60 to 8Kp60 with NGU medium for both chroma and luma (~12ms), NGU high takes ~16ms, while very high takes ~44ms. Using Bicubic for chroma upscaling instead drops rendering times by about 2.5ms. This is without HDR, artifact removal, post processing, or trade quality for performance options.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:17   #56785  |  Link
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Is NGU very high for luma worth sacrificing other settings, if your GPU can manage ? Or NGU high is good enough ?

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Old 5th July 2019, 08:11   #56786  |  Link
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Dear Friends

How madVR is dealing with AMD CPU and GPU? I am going to buy Ryzen 7 3700 and RX5700XT. Will it be enough for better settings in madVR?

Sincerely
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:37   #56787  |  Link
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Noone here has touched either of those, so we don't know. That said CPU is mostly irrelevant for madVR. GPU, we'll have to see. Polaris was somehow rather bad for madVR, if that continues with NAVI we won't know until someone tests.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:05   #56788  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
For example, did you test if disabling black bar detection changes anything?
I don't remember But for me the only advantage of using copyback would be to utilise black bar detection+cropping to save performance, and that's not the case. Otherwise I don't mind the full image processing and it will make to write profile rules easier.
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Old 5th July 2019, 13:08   #56789  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
For which settings?

My 2080 Ti can do 4Kp60 to 8Kp60 with NGU medium for both chroma and luma (~12ms), NGU high takes ~16ms, while very high takes ~44ms. Using Bicubic for chroma upscaling instead drops rendering times by about 2.5ms. This is without HDR, artifact removal, post processing, or trade quality for performance options.
Can it do 4k 24p + Lanczos chroma + NGU Luma + HDR-SDR + 3DLut , Not worried about 60p material, only 4K Bluray remuxes
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Old 5th July 2019, 13:12   #56790  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsnhd View Post
Is NGU very high for luma worth sacrificing other settings, if your GPU can manage ? Or NGU high is good enough ?
No, put everything into NGU Luma first.
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Old 5th July 2019, 13:55   #56791  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
No, put everything into NGU Luma first.
I mean Luma in my question
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Old 5th July 2019, 16:48   #56792  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsnhd View Post
Is NGU very high for luma worth sacrificing other settings, if your GPU can manage ? Or NGU high is good enough ?
Trust your own eyes. Can you see the difference ? If you can't, then it's good enough
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:53   #56793  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsnhd View Post
I mean Luma in my question
Between H and VH on luma, if you're more than 3 feet away, the visual difference is small, but VH is indeed sharper, and you CAN see this in fine lines like animal fur. sifu from kungfu panda , closeup on his furry ears are a good test.

For chroma, I wouldn't even recommend NGU, because it'd be a waste of electricity. Even at 3 feet, it becomes very hard to see the difference between ngu VH vs lanczos. at 3feet plus, I would say it's impossible, I tested for myself, I got it wrong 50% of the time.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:41   #56794  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
For chroma, I wouldn't even recommend NGU, because it'd be a waste of electricity. Even at 3 feet, it becomes very hard to see the difference between ngu VH vs lanczos. at 3feet plus, I would say it's impossible, I tested for myself, I got it wrong 50% of the time.
Do you use chroma 4:4:4 with your display?
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Old 6th July 2019, 08:16   #56795  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Between H and VH on luma, if you're more than 3 feet away, the visual difference is small, but VH is indeed sharper, and you CAN see this in fine lines like animal fur. sifu from kungfu panda , closeup on his furry ears are a good test.
I'm less than 3 feet away, so I'll try to keep NGU luma on very high over other settings.
As @Asmodian stated above, NGU very high costs nearly triple on performance (44/16ms) of high, so it must use the most GPU power for a better result.
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Old 6th July 2019, 08:52   #56796  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clsid View Post
Native is obviously more efficient than copyback. But the performance impact, while noticeable, isn't that huge that makes it a necessity to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
did you test if disabling black bar detection changes anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
I don't remember But for me the only advantage of using copyback would be to utilise black bar detection+cropping to save performance, and that's not the case. Otherwise I don't mind the full image processing and it will make to write profile rules easier.
My last report about this using GPU 1060 6GB (max, underclocked) freq is 1544Mhz:
- first 3 minutes of Shazam 23p 4k HDR BD remux (~75GB, video bitrate 76.7 Mb/s) on a 4K screen
- external srt subtitle is used (MPC-BE internal sub filter)
- LAV filters
- madvr:
-- hdr passthrough
-- only chroma upscaling is applied: NGU Sharp High
-- dithering: Error Diffusion 2
-- no trade quality option is checked
-- full screen window mode
-- 10 bit output if possible

GPU usage results (checked with nvidiainspector):
Code:
- dxva2 native:			76% - 80%
- dxva2 copy-back, - crop:	83% - 87%
- dxva2 copy-back, + crop:	83% - 91%
- d3d11 native:			73% - 77%
- d3d11 copy-back, - crop:	85% - 88%
- d3d11 copy-back, + crop:	87% - 95%
There's the ~10% difference on my system. The closest performer is dxva2 native but with its obvious flaws.
Interestingly enough, cropping (with copy-back modes) increases GPU usage and don't reduce it (it uses the same profile, so result is valid).

I'll be curious about your results/graphs with similar test case, guys, including your system (mine is in my signature).
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:21   #56797  |  Link
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You do realize that cropping maybe using a different profile that you have set up. Zoom Control Cropping should always have a lower usage.

QB
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Old 6th July 2019, 14:10   #56798  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Do you use chroma 4:4:4 with your display?
Of course I do, and it's not an option. 444 or GTFO.
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Old 6th July 2019, 14:13   #56799  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
You do realize that cropping maybe using a different profile that you have set up. Zoom Control Cropping should always have a lower usage.

QB
zoom ctrl doesn't always work with NGU, so it's not a win win always.

w/ NGU it sometimes crops to 3838 then you get lanzos which obviously pushes above 39ms total w/ all the other toppings.
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Old 6th July 2019, 17:37   #56800  |  Link
el Filou
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dxva copyback benchmarks

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you don't have to test HEVC and and HDR doesn't help here anyway h264 should be good enough.
Unfortunately the Radeon 7870 doesn't even support 4K H264, so useless to test. The real limitations of copyback decoding only start to become a problem with 10-bit 4K, because it takes up 8 times the bandwidth of 8-bit FHD. With lower resolutions, using copyback or native doesn't have an impact on which madVR settings I am able to use. With 4K 10-bit it does.

So I've done some benchmarks on my HTPC...

Notes:
- 'GPU' and 'video' numbers are the frequency reported / usage % (e.g. 1290 MHz at 50% load = 'GPU 645')
- CPU and GPU usage counters of DXVA Checker are completely wrong, I don't know how it computes them. Maybe the GPU counter reports only shader usage so it could be right but not useful, but the CPU usage is always wrong. I used HWMonitor which gives the same values as other monitoring tools.

CPU @ 3500 MHz (FSB 333), RAM verified dual channel

1. 4K HEVC 10-bit. Best of 5 passes with DXVA Checker decode/playback, best of 3 runs with madVR. Playback at 1920x1080. madVR settings: scale chroma separately; no compromise on HDR quality; SSIM2D downscale; clip pre-measured for HDR; no black bars detection.

RAM @ 666:

Decode: 63,0 fps, CPU 65, GPU 1006, Bus 24
Playback: 34,9 fps, CPU 81, GPU 731, Bus 21
madVR: 439 dropped frames, avg 50,16 ms, max 78,17 ms, GPU 1772, CPU 95

RAM @ 800:

Decode: 66,8 fps, CPU 60, GPU 1017, Bus 25
Playback: 34,5 fps, CPU 84, GPU 656, Bus 21
madVR: 315 dropped frames, avg 45,68 ms, max 63,78 ms, GPU 1772, CPU 90

For reference, with Native:

Decode: 178,5 fps, CPU 46, GPU 1642, video 1467
Playback: 177,0 fps, CPU 54, GPU 1785, video 1467
madVR: 0 dropped frames, avg 34,38 ms, max 38,46 ms, GPU 1613, CPU 68

Difference of dropped frames and max render times under madVR just with 20% faster RAM is massive.
With DXVA Checker, CPU is not fully loaded with decode and only 6% faster decode with 20% faster RAM. Software/platform inefficiency?

2. Same test but with madVR 'light' settings: compromise on HDR quality checked; Bicubic downscaling instead of SSIM2D

copyback: avg 16,5 ms, max 25,04 ms, GPU 1136, CPU 78
native: avg 14,93 ms, max 17,78 ms, GPU 592, CPU 25

max render time is 40% better while GPU is two times less loaded, CPU three times less loaded. Massive performance impact.
I understand why CPU would be loaded if it has to wait for frames to be read/written from/to system RAM, but why more GPU load? Can't the GPU render a frame it has received from the renderer while the next queued frame from the decoder is transfered over the PCIe bus and back?
A single 4K P010 frame is 25 MB, at PCIe 2 x16 it should take 3,125 ms, 6,25 ms round-trip just for the time over the bus. If the rendering has stalls it could explain the difference of a few ms between copyback & native even with very high end GPUs.

3. A lighter test comparing Jellyfish clip at 1080p HEVC, same bitrate, in 8-bit and 10-bit:

decode 8-bit: 266,5 fps, CPU 54, GPU 1797, video 1430, bus 11
decode 10-bit: 210,7 fps, CPU 60, GPU 1797, video 996, bus 22
playback 8-bit: 240,2 fps, CPU 75, GPU 1797, video 1141, bus 15
playback 10-bit: 181,9 fps, CPU 75, GPU 1743, video 852, bus 20

We see 10-bit decode takes up exactly two times the bus bandwidth as 8-bit, as expected.
The 10-bit decode performance doesn't scale to 4x the speed of the 4K clip (would be 267 fps).

for reference, 10-bit native: 299,2 fps, CPU 18, GPU 1613, video 1415, bus 2

4. Just out of curiosity I underclocked the CPU to 2100 MHz (FSB 200), to be able to test more different RAM speeds:

(Jellyfish 10-bit DXVA Checker decode):

RAM @ 400: 131,6 fps (native 268,4), CPU 76, GPU 1589, video 989, bus 13
RAM @ 533: 139,6 fps (native 275,7), CPU 70, GPU 1642, video 909, bus 14
RAM @ 666: 148,8 fps (native 281,1), CPU 67, GPU 1642, video 798, bus 15
RAM @ 800: 146,0 fps (native 281,8), CPU 68, GPU 1428, video 766, bus 15

for reference, CPU @ 3500 & RAM @ 800: 210,7 fps, CPU 60, GPU 1797, video 996, bus 22

With same RAM speed but 66% faster CPU, 40-45% more fps.
With same (slow) CPU speed but 66% faster RAM, 13% more fps.
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