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Old 22nd December 2009, 17:34   #441  |  Link
deathlord
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Hi

About the linkin park "reanimation" dvd-audio: I had the same problem as reported by DeadlyFoez.
When trying to extract to wav using the "Merge groups" option only, it says the disc is encrypted. If I use the ignore option, it comes with the mlp error. Using the recover option, extraction starts but then hangs.

Now comes the surprinsing part:
When I do not use any options at all, the extraction immediately starts and finishes without error.
So the problems seems to be with the merge option!
Using the "Split groups" option also works, so this problem can be worked around easily: The resulting files can be merged e.g. in wavewizard.

With this info, maybe somebody can fix this little bug, though it is not a real issue anymore.

Many thanks to mommyman and everyone who contributed to this great program!

Cheers
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Old 29th March 2010, 10:04   #442  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Hi all,

Firstly, great job on the beta! I do have a question though - why is it that when using the stereo downmix option the resulting file is so quiet? The loudest song on the album I am ripping barely hits -6db meaning there's wasted resolution there (and I have to turn my speakers up more than should be necessary).

I could do the downmix myself but it would take a long time using Adobe Audition or something. Is there a reason the downmix is so quiet or is it a mistake?
Sorry to take so long replying here, but only just saw this.
This will be because the downmix extraction will be using the built-in downmix - if available and encoded - or else creating it's own from presets. When we encode an MLP lossless file, adding a downmix is an optional thing. It increases the file size, and is a compromise between the surround mix & the necessity for stereo compatibility as not all DVDA players are surround capable or set up for surround so we cannot have a group with just pure 5.1 included.
The other solution is so-called "PGC Block" authoring, where there is a dedicated 5.1 stream imported followed by a dedicated stereo stream. The only other method is a downmix.
The main surround will probably be close to 0dBFS on L,R, possibly on C, and also possibly close on Ls/Rs.
Sum all these into 2 channels and you will clip, so attenuation is required. Recommended values are -6dB on L,R,Ls,Rs and -9dB on centre channels with LFE off.
The result will always sound quieter than the surround does.
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Old 29th March 2010, 10:05   #443  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
If the player knows that it's a copy only because it sees a burned and not a pressed dvd, I wonder if the firmware is hackable for that point.
Because I found that ;
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...66#post1113666

I wonder what does exactly this hack, because I imagine 2 possibilities ;
-the player doesn't search the watermark anymore
-the player search the watermark, find it, but doesn't see difference between burned and pressed dvd anymore, so he believes that it's an original dvd and not a copy.
There is a HUGE issue with MT1389EE chipsets.
They tend to freeze solid on a 16:9 DVDA unless they are the later modded versions or firmware fixed versions.
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Old 29th March 2010, 10:16   #444  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midzuki View Post
But multichannel LPCM does comply with the DVD-Video specs.
What determines the compliance is the DVD-Forum "booklet",
not the "statistic normality" of the standalone DVD-players available.
Only as an optional stream type, and it was never implemented in any players at all.
The DVD specs - like Blu Ray - have mandatory components and optional components. In DVD, DTS is optional, as is multichannel LPCM. One gets implemented, the other never did as DVDA was supposed to take over for pure audio discs.
The only mandatory LPCM stream on DVD-Video is 16/48 stereo - the rest is optional.
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Old 1st April 2010, 08:50   #445  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil wilkes View Post
Only as an optional stream type, and it was never implemented in any players at all.
The DVD specs - like Blu Ray - have mandatory components and optional components. In DVD, DTS is optional, as is multichannel LPCM. One gets implemented, the other never did as DVDA was supposed to take over for pure audio discs.
The only mandatory LPCM stream on DVD-Video is 16/48 stereo - the rest is optional.
Yes, it's optional on discs, but you're wrong when you say that it was never implemented in any players at all, because it works on my Pioneer dv-610.
Muxman accept the multichannel waves (even 7.1). Here are (in purple) the accepted bitrates ;



To hear the multichannel LPCM on dvd-video, you need a player with analog multichannel output or Hdmi output. And of course a multichannel receiver (or several stereo receivers).
If the player has only a stereo analog output and a spdif output, I believe he will make a downmix, or maybe, he will keep only the 2 front channels and will ignore 4 channels on 6 (in 5.1).
The fact that we can't send multichannel LPCM on Spdif is probably more a restriction than a technical limitation, because we can send 2.0 LPCM in 96/24, which bitrate is 4608 kbps, the same than 5.1 LPCM in 16/48 !

Last edited by Music Fan; 1st April 2010 at 09:05.
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Old 2nd April 2010, 09:51   #446  |  Link
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Hey, Music Fan

Sorry, but I think you will probably find your players analogue outputs are giving you either
1 - Internally (in the player) decoded Dolby Digital 5.1, or
2 - Internally generated 5.1 from an Lt/Rt Surround matrixed stream.
5.1 LPCM does not exist on any DVD-Video discs or players as a stream being decoded off the disc.

However, you are of course perfectly correct when you say that SP-DIF or TOSlink can carry the streams - of course it can.
TOSlink in ADAT mode can also carry - in D-MUX operation - 8 channels of 24/96 too (SP-DIF CoAxial cannot)
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Old 3rd April 2010, 09:02   #447  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil wilkes View Post
5.1 LPCM does not exist on any DVD-Video discs or players as a stream being decoded off the disc.
I believe you didn't read my message : it works, and I did it with Muxman !
Look again at the scheme above. I found it here ;
http://www.mpucoder.com/DVD/LimPcmAud.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpucoder
DVD-Video allows LPCM streams having 1 to 8 channels of 16, 20, or 24 bits per sample, 48K or 96K samples per second. However, due to the bitrate limitation of 6144Kbps not all combinations are possible
There was only a 5.1 LPCM track on the dvd I made ; I read it with my Pioneer dv-610 connected by HDMI to my receiver that recognized it as 5.1 LPCM in direct mode.
My Pioneer dv-610 sees the sound as LPCM when I click on display.
And I was not a downmix sent by my player and converted in 5.1 by my receiver, because it was in direct mode, and there was only 1 speaker playing at the same time.
Actually, I recorded my voice 6 times (in 6 mono waves) saying "front right", "center", "rear left", ...
To avoid to hear them all together, I simply chose 5 seconds for each channel in a 30 seconds wav, with 25 silent seconds. Then, with the 6 waves (30 seconds each) I made a single 5.1 wave with BeSweet (it also works with WaveWizard).
And I made a dvd-video with this single track with Muxman. And it was not a dvd-audio !
I can also read it with my Panasonic DMP-BD35 which doesn't play dvd-audio.
If you don't believe it, do it yourself !
The free version of Muxman is enough ;
http://www.mpucoder.com/Muxman/versions.shtml
But I guess other programs than Muxman are able to do that.

Last edited by Music Fan; 3rd April 2010 at 09:24.
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Old 3rd April 2010, 22:25   #448  |  Link
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hi Music Fan.

i know others schemes like you posted above telling seamless possibilities.
for more that i tested, i never could get 5.1 LPCM from my 3 players, no one have HDMI or analog multichannel output, only 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
i have 2 questions:
1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )

thanks.
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:25   #449  |  Link
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raquete wrote:

Quote:
1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )
1- LG 7352N, JVC XV-SA600BK && XV-SA602SL, etc etc etc

2- ISO 9660 ++ UDF 1.02, VIDEO_TS == "yes"

HTH.
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Old 4th April 2010, 08:50   #450  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
i know others schemes like you posted above telling seamless possibilities.
This one has been done by mpucoder (I believe he is member on doom9, he is more able than me to answer some technical questions). Muxman is a good program and its website is not wacky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
for more that i tested, i never could get 5.1 LPCM from my 3 players, no one have HDMI or analog multichannel output, only 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
If you have neither 5.1 analog output nor Hdmi, it's not a big surprise.
But a "5.1 built in decoder" generally means that there is a 5.1 analog output, it's weird.
Actually, all players have a built in 5.1 decoder, but they downmix the 5.1 to 2.0 for stereo output. But we usually don't call it a 5.1 built in decoder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
A lot of players have 5.1 analog output. But Hdmi is easier (only 1 cable) if you have a receiver with Hdmi.
Blu-ray players are also good because they play dvd-video and they have Hdmi ouptut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )
You burn the dvd in dvd-video mode (with Nero for example, or with Imgburn, as Midzuki explained), it's a classical dvd-video architecture.
But you have to add at least an image (bmp) to accompany the sound. If you add a video, remember not to exceed 10 Mbps for the total bitrate (Tmpg Dvd Author advises 9848 kbps as a maximum), thus look at the scheme above to see the bitrate of the sound and to calculate the remaining bitrate for the video.
A video allows to do fast forward and rewind, which is not possible with a still image. I mean with dvd-video, because we can do fast forward and rewind on still image with dvd-audio.

Last edited by Music Fan; 4th April 2010 at 08:55.
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Old 4th April 2010, 16:36   #451  |  Link
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clarifications about my 3 players:
all have 5.1 analogs outputs(RCA) and (more) stereo( RCA L&R) outputs, coaxial and toslink.
the 5.1 analogs only works only when playing AC3-5.1 because have 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
if i play for example DTS-5.1, this 5.1 analogs don't work. is needed to use coaxial or toslink.
..no HDMI...i need a new player.

ah..a classical dvd-video architecture to burn?
ok then to burn dvd-video, first i need to author the multichannel wave ...
but what program can author 5.1 multichannel waves ?!?
muxman? (i know a long time and is cool but i never did multichannels waves to burn in dvd-video structure)

thanks.

edit: hey Mid,
thanks.
i only saw your post after my questions here.
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Old 5th April 2010, 08:59   #452  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
the 5.1 analogs only works only when playing AC3-5.1 because have 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
if i play for example DTS-5.1, this 5.1 analogs don't work.
This is normal, but it should work with 5.1 LPCM which doesn't need decoder.
Don't forget that ac3, Dts and all other compressed formats are decompressed in LPCM before the N/A conversion.
It means that all players handle 5.1 LPCM because they need it for the N/A conversion.
Actually, with 5.1 LPCM, there is even a step less compared to ac3 5.1 : no need to decompress ac3 in LPCM, it's already in LPCM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
but what program can author 5.1 multichannel waves ?!?
muxman?
Yes, you can try it with the free version.
If you don't have a 5.1 LPCM wave, you can test with ac3 or Dts 5.1 that you convert (decompress) in 16/48 5.1 LPCM (with BeSweet, Belight, eac3to, ...).
Then you import the multichannel wave in Muxman, but you have to add an image (bmp in 720.480 or 720.576) and enter its duration (the same than the wave). If he doesn't ask the duration, he asks the total number of frames (25 fps in PAL), I don't remember, you will see.
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Old 5th April 2010, 09:07   #453  |  Link
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Anyway, I have to add that there is better than this way to put multichannel LPCM on dvd : AVCHD. But you need a Blu-ray player to play this.
AVCHD is better because it's easier to author (with MultiAVCHD) and you can put 96/24 5.1 LPCM ! It works on my Panasonic BD35.
I think we can even go up to 192/24 in 7.1 (not 100% certain).

Last edited by Music Fan; 5th April 2010 at 09:09.
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Old 5th April 2010, 11:19   #454  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
This is normal, but it should work with 5.1 LPCM which doesn't need decoder.
Don't forget that ac3, Dts and all other compressed formats are decompressed in LPCM before the N/A conversion.
It means that all players handle 5.1 LPCM because they need it for the N/A conversion.
Actually, with 5.1 LPCM, there is even a step less compared to ac3 5.1 : no need to decompress ac3 in LPCM, it's already in LPCM.
all right but think with me: seems redundance but follow...
this outputs works sending 5.1 LPCM only when have AC3 because the 'built in' AC3 decoder 'decode' the AC3 and send the LPCM to this analogs outputs. When another 'format' is in the AC3 'built in' decoder, the ouput of this decoder mess the signal because only decode AC3, not others formats.
it's a AC3 decoder buitl in only, not for others formats.(a pity).
others users had told me seamless like you some months ago but i got messeds results...
if i good remember seems that i have all channels summeds in the left channel only, i'm not sure now. but in the 3 players happens exactly the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
Yes, you can try it with the free version.
If you don't have a 5.1 LPCM wave, you can test with ac3 or Dts 5.1 that you convert (decompress) in 16/48 5.1 LPCM (with BeSweet, Belight, eac3to, ...).
Then you import the multichannel wave in Muxman, but you have to add an image (bmp in 720.480 or 720.576) and enter its duration (the same than the wave). If he doesn't ask the duration, he asks the total number of frames (25 fps in PAL), I don't remember, you will see.
ok, i know and use muxman in 'guifordvdauthor', cool program for stereo LPCM and AC3 musics videos and used in the past encoding video, muxman is very nice.
i can do 'my own' 5.1 upmix for tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
Anyway, I have to add that there is better than this way to put multichannel LPCM on dvd : AVCHD. But you need a Blu-ray player to play this.
AVCHD is better because it's easier to author (with MultiAVCHD) and you can put 96/24 5.1 LPCM ! It works on my Panasonic BD35.
I think we can even go up to 192/24 in 7.1 (not 100% certain).
seems cool but no Blu-Ray around. :-(
i need to work inside my boreds limitations.

thank you Music Fan!
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Old 7th April 2010, 17:17   #455  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raquete View Post
this outputs works sending 5.1 LPCM only when have AC3 because the 'built in' AC3 decoder 'decode' the AC3 and send the LPCM to this analogs outputs. When another 'format' is in the AC3 'built in' decoder, the ouput of this decoder mess the signal because only decode AC3, not others formats.
How can you be sure of that if you didn't test it ?
And why do my player accept it ? Its manual doesn't mention it, but it works anyway.
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Old 7th April 2010, 17:36   #456  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Fan View Post
How can you be sure of that if you didn't test it ?
And why do my player accept it ? Its manual doesn't mention it, but it works anyway.
i'm not completely sure if works, see my old post here:
Quote:
others users had told me seamless like you some months ago but i got messeds results...
if i good remember seems that i have all channels summeds in the left channel only, i'm not sure now. but in the 3 players happens exactly the same.
but i don't remember in what format was burned the multichannels...maybe as ISO, i'm not sure.
i need to try with muxman and burn as you told to hear what happens.
your player is capable because is new and mine 3 are olders, more than 3 to 5 years old.
features between players change from label to label and model to model.
the manual of each of my players tell about this 5.1 analogs outputs working with AC3 only, how to use and plug, no deep details and nothing about other format.
i will do a new test using muxman and maybe i have better luck.

cheers!
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Old 24th April 2010, 20:13   #457  |  Link
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Hi guys, I studied these very long discussion along the last days, because I got some DVD-Audios last. I own an ONKYO DV-S757 player for about 10 years, but never had a DVD-A to tryout these function (lol).
At first I want to say sorry, if my english is not correct and fully understandable, because I'm a German.
Now to my experiences with these DVD-A's.
I have four DVD-A's for my experiements: LA Women - Doors; A Night At The Opera - Queen; Greendale - Neil Young; Shaman - Santana - every disc seems to be very different from the other.
I ripped them with DVDFab 7 - burned the Doors and put it in the ONKYO - it plays but watermark hits back after 30s and the player stops (as well known here). I tried to rip with clone-mode, with and without original IFO - no difference. All DVD's played in a DVD-Video-only player (HDD-recorder), but only the DVD-Section of course.
Because I read about different players in this thread, that don't care about watermarks, my ONKYO is about 10 years old and a BluRay-player also would be a nice thing, I decided to buy a new one. Now I own an OPPO BDP 83 - and so I have good news for all DVD-A fans - the player has NO watermark dedection!!! And it is a fine DVD- and BluRay-player too.
The Doors-DVD-A copies work very well. Now i did the same with the GREENDALE - clone-mode - and nothing happens! ROOT MENU appears in the display but no picture or sound. Now i tried out the rips with ShaPLAY, the Doors played well, but the GREENDALE not. ShaPLAY scans all the tracks for a second or so, but no track was played.
Now I tried another method to rip it with DVDFab - Full Disk with VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS option. After this I loaded them into NERO 7 and burned an image, mounted it with DEAMON and tried to play with ShaPLAY again. It works very fine! On this rip no DVDAUDIO.MKB is present! I burned it on DVD and it works well in the OPPO. Both of the other DVD-A's work with the DVDAUDIO.MKB present (clone-mode) like the Doors. Very strange this all.
I will keep trying on when I get more DVD-A's.
I hope, that some of my experiences are helpful for you.
At last a question from me, maybe someone have an advice. I've also tried to use my Creative Software DVD-A player for
playback the DVD-A's on PC. But this damned prog didn't work at all - says an obscure CTRTheme.dll is missing (but this file is, where it have to be; update doesn't help) - everybody around knowing this problem?
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Old 25th April 2010, 09:14   #458  |  Link
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Are you sure it's CTRTheme.dll and not CTTheme.dll ?
Look at this topic ;
http://forums.creative.com/t5/Genera...rror/m-p/91750
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Old 25th April 2010, 09:22   #459  |  Link
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@ spacekiller:

so you tried ShaPLAY, but you didn't try Foobar2000 ???
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Old 25th April 2010, 14:22   #460  |  Link
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Quote:
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Are you sure it's CTRTheme.dll and not CTTheme.dll ?
Look at this topic ;
http://forums.creative.com/t5/Genera...rror/m-p/91750
Yes, I mean the CTTheme.dll (wrong keystroke ).

Thanks for this advice, but I know this thread, doesn't help.
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