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16th February 2019, 03:30 | #54761 | Link |
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It's the tonemapping part that's the issue. If you have a display with a high enough max nit, then you'll not see a lot of tonemapping being done. The lower the max nit of the display, the more compressed the highlights need to become. How they do that can vary wildly between displays. Some are decent at it and you'll hardly notice. Others are...less so. NONE of them are as good as madvr has become. When you say there's not much overall luminance lost, that's not always entirely true. madshi spent some time doing luminance recovery but it's a trade off like most everything. In any case, people are able to fine tune the settings to their liking depending on their preference. Some like more dynamic. Others prefer more clipping. Fun times!
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16th February 2019, 04:54 | #54762 | Link |
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You can call it luminance recovery, but that's just detail management, more like sharpening if not exactly the same. That doesn't affect the overall luminance at all. The biggest difference could come from choosing a very different knee point, but that's no very likely, and even then the differences would be minimal.
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16th February 2019, 13:33 | #54764 | Link | |
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HI SamuriHL, I also have GTX1060 and an LG OLED.
Do you use ToneMapping ? When applying ToneMapping for me, rendering for goes from 30ms to 55-60ms and makes it unwatchable Only when I downscale a lot of settings (Chroma from NGU High to low, Image Upscaling to NGU low & downscaling to Spline, it is somewhat acceptable ( 30-35ms ) And strangely enough, I get the best values with 800 nits, while my 2015/16 OLED is rated at 540 nits If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ? Quote:
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16th February 2019, 15:29 | #54765 | Link | |
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Some Rules: - Brightness and Contrast on many displays shouldn't be touched because they are used by the display to set the bottom and top of the tone curve; - You can adjust the white balance, but not all HDR displays will allow you to improve PQ EOTF tracking because it may again effect the tracking of the tone curve; - On displays that don't allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, it is advised to use the 2-point RGB High and RGB Low controls to improve the white balance; - On displays that do allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, you can use the full 10-20 point grayscale controls to dial-in both the white balance and PQ tracking; - The peak brightness or backlight of the display should most often be set to its highest value; - Based on the HDR picture mode selected, some displays will change the tone mapping method used (e.g. clipping vs. tone mapping); - Color temperature and Tint should be selected in the same way as SDR content (e.g. Color 50, Tint 50, Warm2, etc.). Bright HDR displays don't usually have a lot of work to do with tone mapping beyond the brightest specular highlights, but when tone mapping is applied, the display is supposed to tone map 0-100 nits as little as possible, and preferably not at all. A projector will have to tone map much of 0-100 nits at all times because it needs likely double or triple the brightness to have enough headroom above 100 nits to avoid this. When HDR content is graded, heavy tone mapping of 0-100 nits likely isn't taken into consideration, which is why some HDR movies end up darker than others when projected. Consistent brightness across all sources is more challenging with protected HDR than flat panel TVs, especially when you are consistently lowering the APL of the source.
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 15:44. |
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16th February 2019, 15:33 | #54766 | Link | |
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HDR at 100 nits is not really HDR, but a good tone curve, like the one used by madVR, can make it look attractive and provide visibly more contrast than SDR at the same brightness.
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16th February 2019, 16:35 | #54767 | Link |
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Did you mean provide visibly more dynamic range?
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16th February 2019, 17:01 | #54768 | Link |
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Probably not, unless you are using a definition of dynamic range that also works for contrast. What is the difference, exactly? You never really increase the dynamic range or contrast of the screen, obviously, but the image looks like it has more contrast.
I don't quite understand the strong interest in HDR -> SDR myself. Colorists could have graded this way for a long time, but they didn't. I find that very compressed HDR usually looks worse than the SDR release most of the time, in the same way "vivid" modes do on displays. It pops more but it doesn't look as good. Real HDR (1000+ nits) is great, no complaints there. I suppose standard SDR is mastered for 0-100 and this very compressed HDR should be better for 0-300? I use 100 nits for SDR so maybe that is why I don't like it. Or maybe it is just that most of my HDR content also includes an SDR version which is better mastered for an SDR display?
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16th February 2019, 19:33 | #54770 | Link | |
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You would be surprised how many projector owners at AVS Forums love the HDR -> SDR tone mapping of madVR when projected. At 150 nits, I do think a lot of content looks better than a very restricted SDR range of 100 nits, provided the tone curve holds up and properly represents the bottom and top of the range without crushing or washing out the image too much. I still don't know if projector owners understand that 100 nit SDR content already maxed out the actual available dynamic range of a projector. I think the sentiment is towards replicating the Dolby Cinema approach to HDR that uses 107 nits. But you need a projector with a low black level and great contrast to make this limited range HDR work and have any impact. Then it is more about improved contrast than dynamic range. But the current PQ HDR format is using far more steps than 107 nits, which will harm image quality no matter how you tone map the image. I think they fail to realize that range compression must represent the contrast of the entire 1,000 nit source and not just the 100 nits they have to work with. You can't get around squishing the source in places to make the image fit the frame. I like it, but you can't expect a perfect result at all times across all movies when applying that much range compression. There are local tone curves that allow you to tweak the shadows, midtones and highlights independently, but they are probably too slow for madVR and even they would require some compromise somewhere.
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 19:49. |
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16th February 2019, 20:59 | #54773 | Link |
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MadVR FHD 8bit SDR vs UHD 10bit HDR to SDR comparison
I have red several threads on the HDR to SDR / UHD 10 bit to FHD comparison threads and finally decided to give it a go as there is more and more UHD 10bit HDR content.
After some learning curv with the latest build of madVR and testing the "Mehanik HDR10 test patterns", I have tuned my settings and made a comparison of the several frames of different versions ( FHD / UHD 10bit HDR ) of the same great action movie " Mission: Impossible - Fallout " . I have also tested another movies and my conclusion is unequivocal - I definitely like the compressed UHD 10bit HDR to SDR by madVR in comparison to the FHD 8bit version on my rig. I watch movies in the dedicated HT room, small but all black walls and ceiling on 96" CARADA screen with good old JVC DLA-X30 that provides a very good black levels. The lamp has made around 2500 hours run, but still good with 100nits target on madVR . The pj was calibrated a while ago with my old MONACO XR DTP94 colorimeter for REC. 709 2.2 curve and since then I am using the i1pro spectro but waiting till I order a new lamp to get it re calibrated. Since I have been looking for any detailed A/B images on the web and could not fine anything detailed and interesting (sorry if I missed something), I made for you a single frame comparison and uploaded it on my web site with the before/after view including the madVR settings data running on GTX 1070ti. Some frames have more obvious differences the others have less, yet as mentioned the UHD content compressed by the madVR has more clarity as a result with more details in near whites ( low highlight recovery is applied ), deeper and punchier colors with much more detailes and contrast darks that adds more depth to the picture. The textures are a bit sharper as well. Enjoy and let me know what you think. here hover with the mouse over the screenshots Last edited by IceB; 16th February 2019 at 21:00. Reason: additional info |
16th February 2019, 22:09 | #54774 | Link |
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I also prefer the HDR images. Even at 100 target nits, the improvement in contrast is noticeable. Maybe the only complaint I'd have is it looks like the gamma is ever so slightly raised in the HDR shots, which you can notice in some of the changes to some color tones. But none of the images look overbright.
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16th February 2019, 22:34 | #54775 | Link | |
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you're upscaling 4k to 8k ngu then downscaling to 4k ? < you shouldn't do this > Because ngu will only touch chroma upscaling on 4k to 4k, LUMA is 1:1, so whatever ngu setting you put for LUMA upscaling doesn't affect performance On my 1060, for 4K HDR, I have it on NGU medium (Chroma), w/ Tone Mapping to SDR + highlight recovery, it runs ~22-30ms. Luma is 1:1 untouched. My 1060 runs at 2088mhz, it can go to 2112mhz, but it doesn't always auto boost to that high because madvr is not a saturating load at 22-30ms For 1920x1080 upscale, setting is NGU high chroma, NGU high luma.
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Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 16th February 2019 at 22:49. |
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16th February 2019, 23:58 | #54776 | Link | |
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The contrast is static no ? So, whatever tone mapping we do at 100nit , it's trading crush for highlights ?
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17th February 2019, 00:00 | #54777 | Link | |
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Have you compared the lut between colorimeter only and spectro+ colorimeter ? Is it a huge difference ? I'm hunting for a spectro atm.
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17th February 2019, 01:10 | #54778 | Link | |
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I got the spectro mostly for work. Will give the pj a go once I will get my hands on the new lamp. Profiling/calibration is time consuming. |
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17th February 2019, 01:12 | #54779 | Link | |
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17th February 2019, 01:28 | #54780 | Link | |
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I wasted the money once, and when I saw that the numbers on their new certificate were exactly the same as on my original certification (the one you get when you buy the thing), I asked them and that's how I found out. So personally I won't do it again. I guess it's worth doing it if you do pro calibrations, but they people expect a better spectro than an i1pro in that case. I've had my i1pro2 for years and I don't believe it has drifted one bit. My projectors, on the other hand, especially after a few thousand hours... Just my .2 cents of course, it's your money
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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