Modification and optimization of robshot method and its possible use with DVD2SVCD

[Toffy]

@1loser

I asked the question in my post (question was in blue) if this was a modified version of DVD2SVCD than would allow you to do the Robshot-bach modified method but I never got an answer. I guess from your post that it is.

Are you kidding?
Nearly the whole thread is about this new version.
Have a look on the first page of this thread in the middle you find it as attachment of a DVD2SVCD post.

Have much fun

Toffy

[svcdentro]

Originally posted by Bach

Neither one of both. The aim of it is to fix a minimum quality level and, done this, to be sure that all of your next encodings will have at least this quality. CCE handles the Q.factor so that it is a direct measure of the quality of the compression (read my first post in this thread). So, instead of a fixed range of average bitrate, we use a maximum value of Q.factor.

There are also two things to keep in mind:

1)the quality of the compression is not the same thing of your subjective quality. The quality of the compression is a measure of how close to the source the encoded file can be. However, if the source is plenty of artefacts (so, low subjective quality), a high quality compression will keep these artifacts as they are (thus, low subjective quality too). The worse thing is that these artefacts are bandwith lovers, so that a crappy source must be cleaned with avs filters before the encoding, otherwise the mpeg file will have a huge size.

2) most of times Q.factor between 30 and 40 already is good enough. However, since subjective quality is a personal thing, it would be better if you make a couple of tests with different Q.values until you find the best Q.factor for your personal quality level.

I guess it would be better if you read my first post again.

Just in case, i had the same problem with CCE using the RoBa option, after the first pass the program stops and shows bad data error or something, so i made a brand new wxp install and everything is fine since then, could be some old drivers or programs, who knows this things only happen to a little percentage of us and none knows how to fix them but now there are some clues....

[1loser]

If I use this Modified version of DVD2SVCD what bitrate setting will correspond to the average bitrate when using CCE 2.5 by itself for the second pass? When I use CCE WITHOUT using DVD2SVCD I can predict the final size by calculating the bitrate with fitCD and using it for the average but DVD2SVCD has MIN and MAX average. I'm not sure if either of these will give me a predictable size. Can the author of DVD2SVCD please reply?

[vivaatloni]

Here a assumption from me about this method and the question asked what the purpose of this method was: Better quality or smaller filesize (or both).

I peronally think that with this method you could expect the same results when you're encoding with CBR 2530 rate. Only the size will be a lot smaller.

Am I right here? When you use the same settings with CBR 2530 encoding then I get the same quality results but a bigger output file. (Didn't tested it though)

[dvd2svcd]

The idea with this method is like Normalization in audio. Your encoding quality will never be worse than ???? (depending on your offset Q value) and the big advantage is that it will fill up xx numbers of CDs needed to maintain that quality. So as Bach have said, a movie of 2 hours might fit snuggly onto 2 CDs maintaing the quality you would expect instead of 3 cds.

So, the number of discs used are not predictable, but all cds used will be filled to the max.

[vivaatloni]

But do you think that these settings (bias 10 q 25) also work with a CBR output? And what if I encoded a captured video 8 movie.

[1loser]

Originally posted by 1loser
Sorry, looks like you are correct about that.

Doom's article based on Robshot method to create a dvd-r. Getting the best out of CCE.

[galo]

Hi, i am trying the new roba method by i don´t get it to work
i got the message "is not a valid floating point value"
Can anybody could help me
This is the log of dvd2svc
Drive is harddisk, no need to authenticate - OK.
--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 10:55:16 AM
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 10:55:20 AM
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[C:\VCD3\DVD2AVI_Project_file] -IF=[D:\VCD\vts_04_1.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_2.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_3.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_4.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_5.vob]
Framerate: 29970
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 11:31:18 AM
- Free on drive C: 23290.88 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found AC3 stream id: 0x82
Filename: C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Audio1 delay: 27 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:11:40 PM
- Free on drive C: 23079.12 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Converting Audio to MP2. Filename: C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "C:\VCD3\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "C:\VCD3\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -s surround -g max ) -ota( -d 27 ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )
Audio conversion of C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3 finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:25:55 PM
- Free on drive C: 22973.24 mb
- Converting Pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
Converting: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
Finished converting pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:26:04 PM
- Free on drive C: 22972.45 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------
- Editing AVS script file

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 1539589576
AudioSectors: 113336832
VideoPAPO: 22093416
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 600.00
PureMPEGStream: 1393423059.73
Seconds: 4659.36
CalcMPEGStream: 1393423059.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 740.00
Number of CDs: 2
Cut point 735.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 138592
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 2
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 30
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\VCD3\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(480,360)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.460
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 833239988
AudioSectors: 112607096
VideoPAPO: 11162988
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 300.00
PureMPEGStream: 698733639.73
Seconds: 4629.36
CalcMPEGStream: 698733639.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 795.00
StreamSectors: 1665085576
AudioSectors: 113336832
VideoPAPO: 24037416
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 600.00
PureMPEGStream: 1516975059.73
Seconds: 4659.36
CalcMPEGStream: 1516975059.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 2
Cut point 795.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 138592
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 2
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 30
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\VCD3\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(480,360)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

'06:3' is not a valid floating point value

[1loser]

Is it possible to incorporate another change in DVD2SVCD for the robshot method that will speed encoding up. For my first pass I use a simple resize and NO filters to create the vaf file. My second pass may look like this:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\temporalSoften2\TemporalSoften2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\TomsMoComp\Avisynth\TomsMoComp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\unfilter\UnFilter.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
TomsMoComp(1,15,1)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.6,0.6,0,0,720,480)
UnFilter(40,40)
TemporalSoften2(2,5,5)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

In my opinion the vaf file will be the same whether the filters are added or not so why add them on the first pass.

Of course the experts here will probably disagree with that statement.

Bach's response to the last sentenceyou are right here. This statement is completelly, 100%, fully, wrong. The vaf file is a data bank about the input which will be encoded. The input IS the avs file. If you have two different avs files, you indeed have two different input and, as a result, you will have two different vaf files. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
you are right here. This statement is completelly, 100%, fully, wrong. The vaf file is a data bank about the input which will be encoded. The input IS the avs file. If you have two different avs files, you indeed have two different input and, as a result, you will have two different vaf files. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file.

I just did 2 DVD to SVCD conversions using a different avs file for each pass and the quality was excellent. Infact it looks better than many 5 pass encodes that I've seen. I get the same size vaf file no matter what filter or resizing method I use. I used these scripts on my last encode and was very happy with the results.

First pass:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\SimpleResize\SimpleResize.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
SimpleResize(448,448)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

Second pass:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\TomsMoComp\Avisynth\TomsMoComp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\unfilter\UnFilter.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\temporalSoften2\TemporalSoften2.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
TomsMoComp(1,15,1)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.6,0.6,0,0,720,480)
UnFilter(40,40)
TemporalSoften2(2,5,5)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

[dvd2svcd]

Here's an excerpt from the CCE users guide:

What is a video information file ? Generally at least two
passes are required to create a variable bitrate stream for specifying
an average bitrate. This is because the complexity of
images is checked and saved in a file by the first pass, and the allocation
of the bit amount for each frame is calculated according
to the stored information on the complexity of the images, and
encoding is executed in the next pass. Unlike a general encoder,
Cinema Craft Encoder does not distinguish between a pass for
encoding and a pass for analyzing complexity, but always analyzes
the complexity of images during encoding. Therefore,
a video information file does not always have to be recreated
to change the setting of an average, minimum and maximum
bitrate.
A video information file has a history of information for a plurality
of times of encoding, and information is accumulated each
time encoding is executed. This information improves the image
quality for encoding by the Multipass VBR system.
Creating and recreating video information file A video
information file is created by encoding by the CBR or the Onepass
VBR mode. Setting at this time should be close to the
setting for the Multipass VBR mode. If CBR is selected to
create a video information file, set the bitrate for CBR to the
same value as the average bitrate to be specified for executing
Multipass VBR.
A video information file has information for each image frame.
Therefore, values when a video information file is created are
used for parameters which have a major influence on the encoding
of image frames. These parameters are as follows.

• Setting chapter point
• Setting GOP configuration (N, M, GOP header interval,sequence header interval)
• Progressive frame flag
• Block scan order (Zigzag or Alternate)
• Aspect ratio

To change the above parameters, the video information file must
be recreated. To change other parameters, the video information
file does not have to be recreated. If the setting of the
bitrate is a major change, however, it is better to recreate the
video information file because a better encoding result can be
obtained with less number of passes. When a bitrate is set to
twice or more or half or less than the average bitrate, recreating
the video information file is recommended.

So you see, what you say just cannot be, or you just have been extremely "lucky". How did you compare the two VAF files?

[1loser]

Originally posted by dvd2svcd
Therefore, values when a video information file is created are
used for parameters which have a major influence on the encoding
of image frames. These parameters are as follows.

Setting chapter point
Setting GOP configuration (N, M, GOP header interval,sequence header interval)
Progressive frame flag
Block scan order (Zigzag or Alternate)
Aspect ratio

To change the above parameters, the video information file must
be recreated. To change "OTHER" parameters, the video information
file does not have to be recreated. If the setting of the
"BITRATE" is a major change, however, it is better to recreate the
video information file because a better encoding result can be
obtained with less number of passes. When a bitrate is set to
twice or more or half or less than the average bitrate, recreating
the video information file is recommended.

I'm not changing any of these. On the second pass I add the filters and change the resize from simple to bicubic (same aspect ratio). This cuts the encoding time of the first pass in half. From what I just read, I would think that I CAN use the same vaf file. Where does it say if I change the filters or resize from simple to bicubic I need to create a new vaf file? I realize I'm just a NEWBIE but until I hear from Cinema Craft, I believe that the method I'm using is valid and it's always given me good results.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
are you blind? Did you read my last post and don't understand it, or you just want to keep posting nonsence? I must repeat: it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file in such situation. If you edit and change the avs file AFTER the vaf creation, this vaf is a reference about a stream of pictures which simply doesn't exist anymore. You are not simply changing "other" parameters. You are changing the whole source, and this is simply twice worst.
Assuming you are editing the avs file correctly, I BET your second pass is a new_vaf_creation+n_pass. The other possibility is that you forget to press "save" after editing the avs file and just "think" you have a new avs, but all that you have is the same old avs.

@dvd2svcd

please, delete 1loser's last two posts. There is no place for nonsence and misinformation in the Advanced forum. What a shame

Now you're sounding like an arrogant person. I read your post and I read the CCE guidelines that dvd2svcd guoted.

Originally posted by Bach
If you think that what you say is possible, then why should I create a new vaf for every movie? I.e. I could just re-use the x-men's vaf in the 1st pass of LOTR conversion. Can you get the point?

You are talking foolishly here. I may be stupid but NOT as stupid as you are implying. I consider the vaf file as a finger print for THAT movie and as noted by the CCE guidelines it's only necessary to create a newer vaf file for THAT movie when certain things change and NOT necessary when other things change. Did you read those CCE guidelines carefully? I think you are not humble enough to realize that even a NEWBIE like myself could be right. I'm not saying I am right for sure but your attitude sucks!!! I personally think your last post should be removed instead of mine. I'm surprised you didn't ask him to delete my user acoount also. If you want to be a leader than act it a proper manner and not like you're better than others.

[dvd2svcd]

Well, Bachs attitude may suck, but I understand it, you don't seem even to try to understand that what you're doing can't be done. My guess to why this might work for you is that you probably have patched CCE with the CRC patch to avoid CRC errors. No matter what you will stop this nonsense at once, because you are misleading other users. Feel free to contact Cinema Craft and get confirmation.

Both, cool it or I will lock this thread (which will be a pity).

[chainsaw135]

@1loser Hey man there is nothing wrong with being wrong. The thing we dont like around here is when someone is wrong and wont admit that mistake and still wants to shove useless information on to our users. This community is all about new idea's and the discussion of new or even old ideas. We have a place in this community for people that throw around idea's so with that said i hope you dont take that as an attack as I'm not attacking your intelligence but on that note you are sounding really "silly" right now and your views make no sense. Thats my 2cents.

[Linux]

One other viewpoint to this vaf-reusing.

Even if adding filter is changing more or less every picture that will be compressed, there ought to be some correlation between the old and the new movie. Every frame in the picture is in the same place so the relative compressness between the easy and the hard part of the movie should stay the same.

I believe that the original idea to this was to get a known quality corresponding to the choosen Q-Factor.

If one is only intressed with better quality but maybe not exactly the same every time, I think that it would be intressting to make some tests using 1loser's split filter method before saying it is nonsense.

What I meen is that even if a academical and teoretical view say it is nonsense it maybe a good aproximation.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file.

If you make ANY changes to the avs file you WILL get a check sum error. So Bach's statement could have read that it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file UNLESS you have patched CCE with the CRC patch to avoid CRC errors. My earlier post on page 3 SAID I was using the CRC patch.

I encoded "Jackson Brown Going Home" twice.
1) using 2 different avs scripts (no filters on the first pass and simple resize) than reusing the same vaf file but adding all filters and using a bicubic resize for the second pass.
2) using the same script (with all the filters in place and bicubic resize on the first pass). The results where about the same. I'm not really sure if one was better than the other, each person would have to judge for themselves.

I'm not recommending this method to anyone because it's NOT the proper way to encode video and that's what this forum is all about. At the time I made my first post I didn't realize it was only possible because I was using the CRC patch. The ONLY point I wanted to make is that it was infact possible because I've done it about 20 times with results that I PERSONALLY thought were good but I know VERY little about video encoding and that's why I'm hear to learn how to do things in the proper manner.

I just want to stress this point, I don't recommend using the patch so you can use this method and I already removed the patch from CCE.

Update: I had to add the check sum patch back because even when I keep the avs file and ALL the settings the same I get the check sum error at 35 % completion. That's why I used it in the first place. Maybe if I did a fresh install of windows XP I wouldn't have that problem anymore

[emilius256]

This are my test results with RoBa for the movie Patch Adams PAL time 1.50:29
2 Audio Tracks 160 Kbps and 1 Subtitle.
Bitrate Max. 2530 Min. 300 Max. Avg. 2230 Cd Size 800.
4 pass, Image Quality Priority 24, Anti Noise Filter 2, Q.Factor 30, Bias 20 [X]Linear Quantizer Scale, [X]ZigZag Scanning Order, [X]Progressive Frame, Intra DC Decision 10.
In the AVS script Bicubicresize is used and no other filter.
The Average Bitrate used was 1680 and it came out 2 800 CD.
The quality is really awesome, when i look in my pc there's a little more "Mosquito noise" than a normal 5 pass, but on my tv is not really notable.
So good, good thing.

[Clixo]

@emilius : to remove that mosquito noise use temporalsoften2(3,5,7), is is making wonders here whith that problem

[emilius256]

Thank you Clixomano, i'm re-encoding the same movie with temporalsoften2.