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Old 26th August 2013, 16:41   #19941  |  Link
Niyawa
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Originally Posted by *Touche* View Post
Why would this look better than 24p@24Hz?
Haha, leeperry is known for having odd/contradicting opinions on things. Don't take it for the heart.

However this is weird indeed, madVR's FRC is supposed to imitate the feeling you get with 24p@24hz. If you find madVR's method to be better then this points out to a problem with your 24hz display.
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Old 26th August 2013, 17:08   #19942  |  Link
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In my experience, if your display only supports <= 60Hz then using FRC exclusively for all content (except 29.97/30/60fps) is simpler and visually indistinguishable from using 24/48Hz. I've tested 24fps on 60Hz with FRC and on 120Hz without FRC at the same time on two identical displays and you simply cannot tell the difference. Even if your nose is touching the monitor while running test patterns or other videos.

It's my observation that FRC does not give a visually indistinguishable result is when the video's framerate is within ~25% of the display's refresh rate. Maybe madshi could provide better insight on this.

Last edited by dansrfe; 26th August 2013 at 17:15.
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Old 26th August 2013, 17:39   #19943  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by *Touche* View Post
Why would this look better than 24p@24Hz?
Because FRC blends the frames, they're not 1/2/3/4 anymore, they're 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 and so on. madshi made very clear that FRC was simulating an infinite refresh rate and that the higher the better.

All I'm seeing is frame blending I guess and it would appear that SVP also provides a blending mode. FI does create unacceptable artifacts on fast moving objects but I can entirely live with frame blending slight "blurring"(can't really find the right word ^^) as 24p doesn't hiccup anymore

Anyway, as I said I'm colorblind and left-handed and I'm just sharing the results of my real-world experiments....If anything, I kinda have a hard time understanding how nobody else sees what I see tbh

This said, 99% of the world appears to be using PWM flickering LCD monitors that give me instant headaches and eye burns, lol: LED Monitors can cause headaches due to flicker

Compare the very fast flickering videos from my previous post to this nasty sluggishly flickering PWM LCD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKhDS7CHDPk

I also cannot bear plasmas that just flicker like hell to my brain, but again it doesn't just happen to me.

99% of the world would be OK with that DELL monitor but you can read that the guy who posted that youtube video sent it back for a refund due to this major problem. Funnily enough, DELL sent non-PWM samples of that S2440L monitor for review purposes and BenQ is now putting its money on a new line of non-flickering A-MVA monitors, too good to be true

What I've learned in the audio world is that we all hear differently, the same way we all see differently. The idea is to share experiments results and find ways to improve our own experience, nothing more really and madshi has really saved my day as far as my HTPC is concerned

It would appear that some digital displays use CRT-like tricks when fed 24p so YMMV again, but unprocessed 24p judder is really hard to bear IME on a LCD screen: New Sony HDTV’s with Motionflow Impulse

Last edited by leeperry; 26th August 2013 at 22:05.
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Old 26th August 2013, 20:18   #19944  |  Link
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My plasma shows 24p at 96 Hz. Looks great, aside from the edge-quadrupling but that's only visible on certain panning shots.
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Old 27th August 2013, 00:04   #19945  |  Link
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24p@96/120Hz looks great on a CRT, a hell lot better than on a LCD but then again mVR's FRC still does its blending magic to my eyes
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Old 27th August 2013, 00:22   #19946  |  Link
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I'm with you on the PWM issue. I hate it. Then again, I also hate LCDs in general
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Old 27th August 2013, 08:44   #19947  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankov View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Please note that the suggestions from the first post in the madVR + ArgyllCMS AVSForum thread are *NOT* recommended to be used. Look into the thread to find the command lines I personally recommend.
madshi,
would you, please, add a link to your recommended lines in the first post of the current thread? This will make it a lot easier for beginners in calibration like me.
madshi the first post in the AVS forum thread was updated on 22.08.2013? Does it still NOT represent your recommendations ... which btw I still haven't found in the AVS forum ... or I'm not exactly ceratin that I did and I'll be very glad if you can post a link here.
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Old 27th August 2013, 16:13   #19948  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankov View Post
madshi the first post in the AVS forum thread was updated on 22.08.2013? Does it still NOT represent your recommendations ... which btw I still haven't found in the AVS forum ... or I'm not exactly ceratin that I did and I'll be very glad if you can post a link here.
The first page of that thread has been updated with madshi's recommended parameters. Also, I posted this in response to your question a few pages back: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=19914.
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Old 27th August 2013, 18:06   #19949  |  Link
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a newbie question about upscaling:
what would be better (with more quality) to watch:
1) 720p upscaled w madVR to 1080p desktop resolution
2) 720p at 720p desktop at 1080p monitor ?
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Old 27th August 2013, 18:16   #19950  |  Link
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If you have a 1080p monitor there will always be scaling for playing 720p content (in most cases even for 1080p content due to chroma sub-sampling). For 1) madVR does that scaling, for 2) the monitor does the scaling. I don't know how good your monitor's scaling is, but the scaling madVR does is very good so I would go with 1).
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Old 27th August 2013, 19:07   #19951  |  Link
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Anyone knows how can I set madvr to use the radeon 7870 for acceleration when the output is set to my onboard gfx card?
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Old 27th August 2013, 20:27   #19952  |  Link
DragonQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owyn View Post
a newbie question about upscaling:
what would be better (with more quality) to watch:
1) 720p upscaled w madVR to 1080p desktop resolution
2) 720p at 720p desktop at 1080p monitor ?
Depends on whether your monitor is any good at scaling or not. In my experience, monitors suck at scaling. TVs on the other hand range from terrible to fantastic. My TV scales Wii 480p content exceptionally well - it's just a shame that Wii games don't tend to use anti-aliasing, otherwise they'd look great.
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Old 28th August 2013, 03:18   #19953  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
http://i.imgur.com/YVF4zdr.jpg

At first I thought it could be either a bad configuration setup or a corrupted file, but the guy who reported the issues told me that when he switches his refresh rate to 59 hz (instead of 60 hz) the issue fixes itself, but appears in other videos. He has yet to tell me which types of videos this happens (like their fps and whatnot) but I want to hear everyone's opinions, as this might be something that has already happened around here.
Are you using hardware accelerated decoding? Software decoding seems to be less error prone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owyn View Post
a newbie question about upscaling:
what would be better (with more quality) to watch:
1) 720p upscaled w madVR to 1080p desktop resolution
2) 720p at 720p desktop at 1080p monitor ?
Use madVR to scale.
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Old 28th August 2013, 08:41   #19954  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
The first page of that thread has been updated with madshi's recommended parameters. Also, I posted this in response to your question a few pages back: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=19914.
dansrfe,
thanks a lot for the link. I usually read very thoroughly and don't know how I've missed it ... well I think I know now - your post is above mine ?!?!? How is this even possible? May be some forum glitch.
Anyway thanks - I'll play around with these this weekend.
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Old 28th August 2013, 09:13   #19955  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
I just watched a movie a few minutes with OSD on and found several times where for about 30 sec the max rendering time was about half the average rendering time.
I guess I figured it out. It's specific to one movie. It seems to have a much bigger spread of rendering times than other movies. Generally the rendering times are quite low but for some scenes they're quite high. After such a demanding scene if the maximum rendering time drops a lot (which I guess correctly reflects the timings) then the average rendering time needs quite some time to catch up. That's when the latter is much higher than the former.
Sorry for not seeing the obvious earlier.
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Old 28th August 2013, 15:26   #19956  |  Link
vomanci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owyn View Post
a newbie question about upscaling:
what would be better (with more quality) to watch:
1) 720p upscaled w madVR to 1080p desktop resolution
2) 720p at 720p desktop at 1080p monitor ?
So, if i have a 1080p PC monitor that can change resolutions to 720p or 480p, using MadVR internal resolution switch, you guys are saying i should leave the monitor at 1080p always? Or use the resolution switch?
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Old 28th August 2013, 15:52   #19957  |  Link
DragonQ
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MadVR will almost certainly scale better than your monitor, so leave it on 1080p.
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Old 28th August 2013, 15:56   #19958  |  Link
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It's always best to use the native resolution of your monitor. Let madVR do the scaling work instead of the monitor's internal scaling. For myself that meant using the rectangular pixel resolution of 1024x768 (I have a 2007 LG 720p Plasma)... Just make sure 1080p is your "native" resolution.

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Old 28th August 2013, 18:07   #19959  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Are you using hardware accelerated decoding? Software decoding seems to be less error prone.
...

I'm not sure how I forgot to ask him something so fundamental. I'll get that back to you when I have it.

Also a question for display experts out there. I'm in a dilemma between IPS and TN. On one side I can get better colors but no 120hz (which is kinda sad for my casual gaming and video smoothness) but on the other side I can get the best smooth experience ever (but with not so good colors thanks to the bad viewing angles).

Does one side has any other benefits which I'm not aware of that might help me make my decision on which one to go for? I'm aware that we have IPS displays that can be overclocked to 120hz, but those need to be imported AFAIK and I forgot the name of the other company that makes those around here...
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Old 28th August 2013, 18:35   #19960  |  Link
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
It's specific to file name tag. No artifacts with force film and no tag but also isn't ivtc'd correctly. I tested it on 3 PC's, same artifacts with potplayer on all, no artifacts with mpc-be on all.
And this occurs with all movies? Please double check the OSD to see whether deinterlacing is actually enabled and film mode active when forcing film mode. Maybe the movie is detected to be progressive? In that case forcing film mode won't do a thing, but using the file name tag might force deinterlacing on. Not sure, though, just a guess. At least that's the only way I can imagine why the problem would only apply to the file name tag...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture_g7 View Post
One question: I've a 2600k and a 7870. Now, I have my out usually set to the onboard gfx to save power and it fires up the 7870 when needed via virtu software. My question is, how can I set madvr to use the 7870 for acceleration when the output is set to my onboard?
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Originally Posted by vulture_g7 View Post
Anyone knows how can I set madvr to use the radeon 7870 for acceleration when the output is set to my onboard gfx card?
Please don't post your question twice.

Personally, I've no idea how that virtu stuff works. madVR behaves like a game. So whatever you do to make games run on your 7870 should in theory also work for madVR. If it doesn't then I don't know why, or how to make it work, unfortunately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikibana View Post
I notice something strange, but very subtle and hard to spot while playing HD content.

Everything seems to play buttersmooth, but during specific tiny movements (typically a slow moving object in the distance or background) I notice some stutter, exclusively focussed on that object. it's like the object jumps from one place to the next (but very subtle) and there are some frames missing in between.

But even during these moments, all other motion and all other objects of the image are perfectly portrayed. The statistics also show no frame drops whatsoever.

My best guess: some motion detection algorithm is playing the wrong tricks?
Is this with DXVA deinterlacing? That's the only part which might treat some parts of the image differently than others. All other algorithms used by madVR don't do such a thing atm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
Whenever the present queue is set lower than the render queue so the former cannot hold all rendered frames (or rendered + blended ones with FRC used) the rendering time increases.
Does this mean the renderer has to wait for the present queue to free up and this waiting time is added to the rendering time?
I thought having the queues filled completely was good but it's faster if the present queue is not by setting the present queue higher than the render queue.
Is this in windowed mode or overlay mode or fse mode?

Generally, playback should be more reliable the bigger the queues are. The smallest queue can be the bottleneck. It's better to have a 2000 frame queue which is half full than to have a 4 frame queue which is full. So it doesn't really matter if they're "full" or not. What matters is how many frames are stored in there. So setting the queues higher should usually help stability, as long as you're not running out of RAM and if the GPU driver doesn't have a problem with the queue size. Of course big queues mean slower OSD reaction. A larger presentation queue also means slower windowed <-> fse switches. So it comes at a price.

I'm not sure, maybe Direct3D gets stuck/slower when the presentation queue is full. It shouldn't, but I've not written D3D, so I can't vouch for what it does.

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Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
At first I thought it could be either a bad configuration setup or a corrupted file, but the guy who reported the issues told me that when he switches his refresh rate to 59 hz (instead of 60 hz) the issue fixes itself, but appears in other videos.
Looks like a problem with DXVA decoding to me. Or the GPU hardware is broken.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
-24p@24Hz: interframe jitter is excellent but the 24p judder is really hiccupy, especially on slow pans. Also, flickering is fairly annoying on flat bright objects(a long shot from 100Hz CRT, though ^^)

-24p@24Hz + BFI: hardly anymore backlight flickering and the synced BFI hides motion blur amazingly well. The flip side of the coin is that it acts as a motion-based EE and the picture looks really "colored" for lack of a better word. The subjective pop effect is highly increased but it doesn't look natural, it really has a "digital" flat-screen look.....my brain is not tricked into believing that it's watching through a window(the original intent of HD video). I can literally "feel" the syncopated shutter of the BFI and that really gives a "digital" unnatural look. 24p judder is still there and it's painful.

-24p@60Hz + mVR FRC: Ah, goodness! This time the motion blur doesn't hide/cheat anymore, it strives to make things look a hell lot smoother. Pop effect is astounding, 24p judder is history and it literally makes me feel like I'm watching through a window, too good to be true

OTOH, once BFI is disabled the darn backlight flicker becomes very annoying
Two comments:

(1) Why is there more flickering with BFI turned *OFF* compared to turned *ON*? Normally BFI introduces flickering, it doesn't remove/reduce it!!!

(2) When you're talking about "24p judder", do you mean the judder that the lower framerate of 24fps naturally comes with? If so, 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC should show it exactly the same way. If 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC is smoother for you than the native 24Hz modes of your display, then I would bet on that your display doesn't handle 24Hz "correctly", instead it probably does a 3:2 pulldown internally. If that is the case, what you're seeing is not "24p judder", but instead 3:2 pulldown judder introduced by your display handling 24p input in a bad way. If you had a display which handles 24Hz input correctly, it should be just as smooth as 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
It's my observation that FRC does not give a visually indistinguishable result is when the video's framerate is within ~25% of the display's refresh rate. Maybe madshi could provide better insight on this.
I've said it right from the start: The higher the refresh rate, and the lower the framerate, the better smooth motion FRC works. I might be able to improve the smoothness when framerate and refresh rate are near to each other, but if I do so, it will cost quite a bit more sharpness in moving parts of the image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
Also a question for display experts out there. I'm in a dilemma between IPS and TN. On one side I can get better colors but no 120hz (which is kinda sad for my casual gaming and video smoothness) but on the other side I can get the best smooth experience ever (but with not so good colors thanks to the bad viewing angles).
If you're looking for a computer display, I'd prefer an IPS panel, except if you're a heavy gamer, maybe. If you're looking for a movie display, I'd much rather recommend a Panasonic plasma, or one of the new OLED displays from LG or Samsung if can afford that. But that is a hot topic, and a matter of taste (some people don't like plasmas, while I personally like them much better than LCDs for movie watching). So please let's no go into this in any more depth.
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