BDSup2Sub - convert and tweak bitmap subtitle streams (VobSub,BD-SUP,BDN XML,HD-SUP) - Page 9

0xdeadbeef · 31st March 2009, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Have you even looked at the pics?
[...]
I don't think you'll ever seem to understand it without trying it yourself and I'm not appreciating being called a liar when I'm just trying to help.

I completely understand your assumptions and explained in detail which of them are wrong and why. I'm not quite sure how to explain this in more detail or if this would make sense at all, since you seem to be pretty much unconvincable.

turbojet · 31st March 2009, 13:56

What are you trying to convince me of?

The least we could do to figure this all out is work with the same source.

I can't discuss the Iron Man subs at all with you as I don't have them to test, the subs could yield completely different results for me.

It could also be your PS3 doesn't agree with other players including USA PS3, which hopefully I'll get to check out soon with swapped and unswapped. I already know of a case where PAL PS3's played some BD5/9 with menus while USA PS3's don't. You don't need to try and tell me I'm right or wrong about this, I'm only stating it as a possibilty.

0xdeadbeef · 31st March 2009, 14:03

Just re-read my postings. I invested quite some time to explain this to you, so it would be at least polite to read it. You also wouldn't need to ask "if I even had a look" at your example then.

turbojet · 31st March 2009, 14:19

Sure I've invested a few hours trying to explain it to you as well, even going as far as making pics, next step would be to do it on your computer.

I don't see anything concerning the sup I used in your posts, but I do see some of Iron Man.

Anyways this is getting nowhere, if you don'r understand it by now I give up.

0xdeadbeef · 31st March 2009, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Sure I've invested a few hours trying to explain it to you as well, even going as far as making pics, next step would be to do it on your computer.

If you still think this would change anything, you haven't read my postings (carefully enough).

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

I don't see anything concerning the sup I used in your posts, but I do see some of Iron Man.

Which goes to show how carefully you read my postings.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=150
Yeah, Iron Man sure loves his sake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Anyways this is getting nowhere, if you don'r understand it by now I give up.

Yes, must be me

Or wait, wasn't I the author and you the guy who didn't even recognize his own SUP. Hm?

0xdeadbeef · 31st March 2009, 19:41

31.03.2009 2.6 -> 2.7

Changed: added option to move all captions inside/outside bounds (typically the cinemascope bars)
Changed: temporarily added workaround for (what I consider) a bug in SupRip's RLE decoder
Changed: automatic language selection also from the CLI if no language is given explicitly

turbojet · 31st March 2009, 20:30

Basically it all comes down to a disagreement on what colors should be shown in te gui.
I understand why you want it to display supread colors for your PS3 hopefully you can understand why I prefer the old way which was suprip colors for BD30 and various software players. I found out PowerDVD 7 and Arcsoft TMT3 display supread colors, while PowerDVD 8 and TMT2 display suprip colors.

It's unfortunate there isn't standard way of displaying these colors. Anyhow maybe you could add an option thats read from ini to invert gui colors to suprip in the future?

Also is drag and drop and/or open with from context menu possible?

0xdeadbeef · 31st March 2009, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Basically it all comes down to a disagreement on what colors should be shown in te gui.

Exactly. This of course also reflects the obvious confusion about the color order amongst different tools and obviously even standalones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

I understand why you want it to display supread colors for your PS3 hopefully you can understand why I prefer the old way which was suprip colors for BD30 and various software players. I found out PowerDVD 7 and Arcsoft TMT3 display supread colors, while PowerDVD 8 and TMT2 display suprip colors.

Then again, as I said, as long as you export SUPs, It's completely irrelevant how the colors are displayed in BDSup2Sub as it doesn't change the palette (as long as the swap option isn't activated).

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

It's unfortunate there isn't standard way of displaying these colors. Anyhow maybe you could add an option thats read from ini to invert gui colors to suprip in the future?

I'm not quite sure what this would be good for since it wouldn't add any functional benefit over the swap function but make this matter even more confusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbojet

Also is drag and drop and/or open with from context menu possible?

Drag'n'Drop should be possible, but integration into the Windows explorer is nothing that can be handled from Java. It should be possible to create a registry entry though with an external script or probably by just importing a ".reg" file. Then again, BDSup2Sub currently doesn't accept only one command line parameter. This should be easy to add though.
Let' say I'll consider these suggestions.

cavediver · 1st April 2009, 01:50

I just downloaded 2.7. Thank you for the new ability to move all frames out of bounds for 2:35 material.

rizu · 1st April 2009, 05:02

Thank you

I like the way you implemented it.

jonathonsunshine · 1st April 2009, 12:16

and thank you for auto language selection from command prompt

0xdeadbeef · 1st April 2009, 17:03

As a side note, I am certain now, that the colors are stored as Y, Cr, Cb in a Blu-Ray PDS segment. This means that the colors displayed by SupRead, BDSup2Sub and my PS3 are correct.

rizu · 2nd April 2009, 20:56

I found a weird HD DVD sub which puts BDSup2Sub to deadlock (just freezes on 0%).

It's evodemux stream but eac3to demuxed worked just the same way. If I try to import stream directly it freezes. If I use supRead and export it to BD sup and then open in BDSup2Sub there's about half of the subs giving error about subs ending before starting so I guess there is something messed up on original authorization

For some reason TMT2 shows muxed BD with supRead subs just fine.

0xdeadbeef · 2nd April 2009, 20:59

02.04.2009 2.7 -> 2.8

Changed: added drag'n'drop support
Changed: if one parameter (which is neither "/?" nor "/help") is given, it's used as input file for the GUI
Fixed: HD-DVD-SUPs: next DSCQ is checked to avoid endless loops.

alc0re · 3rd April 2009, 03:24

I mean this in the kindest of ways...but I wish you as the developer would pursue fixing the output bd .sup so that it worked muxing with tsMuxer for avchd/bluray playback. I know you've said you need someone to respond to your asking for help regarding this issue...but the only way anyone is going to see that are the people that know about your program (and read the whole forum thread), and they for the most part are not developers with the knowledge to help with that issue. My wish is that you would pursue the developers of bd-rebuilder and/or tsMuxer for some help on this issue. This tool is very promising but its still lacking that feature. Now I know you're going to take my request that you pursue the issue with other developers with a grain of salt, since you are obviously not getting paid for developing this program, but I know I would be more than happy myself to pay for a program that could resize the original .sup to 1280x720 and have it work in a muxed avchd/bluray format. I appreciate your work on this program...if you don't have the time to fix this issue oh well. Thanks for your hard work on this program.

turbojet · 3rd April 2009, 05:44

Thanks for the drag and drop, works well.

alc0re: I have resized to 720p sup, muxed with tsmuxer 1.8.18-1.8.34 and they worked correctly on Panasonic BD30 and PS3. I've done this on about 15 so far.
Is it the Panasonic BD35 you are having issues with?
Have you tried other sups other then get smart?

alc0re · 3rd April 2009, 05:46

Yah I only tried it once. It was on my BD35 with the Get Smart subs.

I'll try it again with a different movie on my next transcode.

EDIT : Trying on Kung Fu Panda now...its burning.

EDIT 2 : Kung Fu Panda sup convert to 720 on BD35 works. I'll try it with more tomorrow...crossing my fingers as ocr'ing takes too much time and is error prone. I would love to be able to take that step out of the process.

0xdeadbeef · 3rd April 2009, 11:46

@rizu:
2.8 also fixes the problem with you stream. About the warning: while it's completely legal in HD-SUB and BD-SUPs to have no end time (which will just display the caption until the begin of the next caption), I decided to force end times as this allows me to export always exactly the same stream format. So a warning displayed by BDSup2Sub doesn't necessarily mean an authoring bug. Indeed palette and cropping animations will also generate warnings as BDSup2Sub can't (or doesn't want to) really handle them.
Let's put it this way: a warning usually just means that BDSup2Sub doesn't like a certain stream structure and therefore isn't sure that the decoded caption is really correct.

@turbojet:
Did you try the explorer integration (see first posting or online help)?

@alc0re:
As I already pointed out, the matter is a little more complex than it might seem. In a nutshell the problem is that a player needs a certain time to decode the different parts of the subpicture to be able to display it at the scheduled time stamp.

There are several additional time stamps in a transport stream that tell the player when to load a segment into its decoder so it's ready for display when it's needed. Since calculation of these timestamps is a little tricky and depends on buffer sizes and decoding frequencies, this is typically handled by the authoring tool. Since e.g. SUB/IDX files (and also HD-DVD-SUPs) don't contain this information at all, it's completely up to the muxer or authoring tool to create these time stamps.

For whatever reason though, the guys who defined the BD-SUP format decided to let these time stamps in the demuxed SUP and most obviously, tsMuxer also uses them (without any further correction (?)) for Muxing. So now it's up to the tool that creates the SUP to somehow create these timestamps. As I already pointed out BDRebuilder cheats around this by simply not touching any relevant data and only moving the display offset (resulting in too big captions that may be partly outside the screen). I'm not quite sure about the BD-SUPs that SupRead exports if the source was a HD-DVD SUP. It seems to create at least some of the timestamps. Can't say how correct they are though.

Anyway, currently BDSup2Sub uses static offsets (derived from some untouched SUPs exported by TsMuxer) to write more or less plausible values to these time stamps. Since they are not calculated and in no way related to the size of the segments or size of the caption, it's very likely that a player might get into trouble if it implements the buffer/speed limitations exactly and not muxer/authoring tool fixes the time stamps. This is especially likely for standalones, since due to memory/performance limitations, they have to rely on the offsets much more than a software player running on a high end PC.

Then again, I was recently provided with some useful information that might help me to improve the situation. I'm actually currently digging through this and am kinda optimistic that I find a way to actually calculate the offsets instead of guessing them. It's kind of a major task though and may take a while.

Also keep in mind that in the end, it's the muxer/authoring tool that has to put the pieces together correctly. It shouldn't be forgotten that replacing an M2TS transport stream with another one muxed with some free Muxer is a hack. It might work with some players/movies and it might not with others. We're really still in the stone age of re-authoring BDs and due to the complexity of the BD format and the fact that every (real, not AVCHD) BD must have AACS (which makes free authoring tools either illegal or pointless), chances are this won't change soon.

alc0re · 3rd April 2009, 15:51

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback and a better explaination of the problem. Helps me understand what's going on.

PS. I just tested, and the output bluray .sup file from your newest version does not crash suprip anymore.

rizu · 3rd April 2009, 17:07

Thanks, that HD DVD stream works like a charm now

About your reposition routine, while it works, it still makes subs jumpy as it always calculates sub position by lowest point on current bitmap. For example sub with any of y,g and q will be basically positioned higher than subs where font doesn't reach below normal level. Sub jumpiness is noticed especially if subs are positioned close to actual video frame as you kinda remember the gap to the frame.

I can see few ways around this, first would search through all frames and get the lowest and highest bitmap positions on all subs and use it to calculate the amount subs which need to be repositioned..

Other simpler way would just mark the first found low and high position after repositioning.. eg if first low bitmap was lifted by 41px then lift all the rest by same amount too if lift value is somewhere around +-15px, that way you could keep subs from bouncing and not needing to go through all subs before determining a good value.

As a side note, I'm kinda exicited how current HD sw tools are working now that time has passed from the early days. I can pretty much backup my entire HD collection and view those films now in about every mediaplayer without sacrificing picture or audio quality

31st March 2009, 13:56	#162 \| Link
turbojet Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,840	What are you trying to convince me of? The least we could do to figure this all out is work with the same source. I can't discuss the Iron Man subs at all with you as I don't have them to test, the subs could yield completely different results for me. It could also be your PS3 doesn't agree with other players including USA PS3, which hopefully I'll get to check out soon with swapped and unswapped. I already know of a case where PAL PS3's played some BD5/9 with menus while USA PS3's don't. You don't need to try and tell me I'm right or wrong about this, I'm only stating it as a possibilty. Last edited by turbojet; 31st March 2009 at 14:07.

31st March 2009, 19:41	#166 \| Link
0xdeadbeef Author of BDSup2Sub Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 478	31.03.2009 2.6 -> 2.7 Changed: added option to move all captions inside/outside bounds (typically the cinemascope bars) Changed: temporarily added workaround for (what I consider) a bug in SupRip's RLE decoder Changed: automatic language selection also from the CLI if no language is given explicitly

2nd April 2009, 20:56	#173 \| Link
rizu Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7	I found a weird HD DVD sub which puts BDSup2Sub to deadlock (just freezes on 0%). It's evodemux stream but eac3to demuxed worked just the same way. If I try to import stream directly it freezes. If I use supRead and export it to BD sup and then open in BDSup2Sub there's about half of the subs giving error about subs ending before starting so I guess there is something messed up on original authorization For some reason TMT2 shows muxed BD with supRead subs just fine. Last edited by rizu; 3rd April 2009 at 17:09. Reason: stream removed as problem was fixed

2nd April 2009, 20:59	#174 \| Link
0xdeadbeef Author of BDSup2Sub Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 478	02.04.2009 2.7 -> 2.8 Changed: added drag'n'drop support Changed: if one parameter (which is neither "/?" nor "/help") is given, it's used as input file for the GUI Fixed: HD-DVD-SUPs: next DSCQ is checked to avoid endless loops. Last edited by 0xdeadbeef; 2nd April 2009 at 21:52.

3rd April 2009, 05:46	#177 \| Link
alc0re Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 91	Yah I only tried it once. It was on my BD35 with the Get Smart subs. I'll try it again with a different movie on my next transcode. EDIT : Trying on Kung Fu Panda now...its burning. EDIT 2 : Kung Fu Panda sup convert to 720 on BD35 works. I'll try it with more tomorrow...crossing my fingers as ocr'ing takes too much time and is error prone. I would love to be able to take that step out of the process. Last edited by alc0re; 3rd April 2009 at 07:39.

31st March 2009, 14:03	#163 \| Link
0xdeadbeef Author of BDSup2Sub Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 478	Just re-read my postings. I invested quite some time to explain this to you, so it would be at least polite to read it. You also wouldn't need to ask "if I even had a look" at your example then.

31st March 2009, 14:19	#164 \| Link
turbojet Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,840	Sure I've invested a few hours trying to explain it to you as well, even going as far as making pics, next step would be to do it on your computer. I don't see anything concerning the sup I used in your posts, but I do see some of Iron Man. Anyways this is getting nowhere, if you don'r understand it by now I give up.

31st March 2009, 20:30	#167 \| Link
turbojet Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,840	Basically it all comes down to a disagreement on what colors should be shown in te gui. I understand why you want it to display supread colors for your PS3 hopefully you can understand why I prefer the old way which was suprip colors for BD30 and various software players. I found out PowerDVD 7 and Arcsoft TMT3 display supread colors, while PowerDVD 8 and TMT2 display suprip colors. It's unfortunate there isn't standard way of displaying these colors. Anyhow maybe you could add an option thats read from ini to invert gui colors to suprip in the future? Also is drag and drop and/or open with from context menu possible?

1st April 2009, 01:50	#169 \| Link
cavediver Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 29	I just downloaded 2.7. Thank you for the new ability to move all frames out of bounds for 2:35 material.

1st April 2009, 05:02	#170 \| Link
rizu Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7	Thank you I like the way you implemented it.

1st April 2009, 12:16	#171 \| Link
jonathonsunshine Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 87	and thank you for auto language selection from command prompt

1st April 2009, 17:03	#172 \| Link
0xdeadbeef Author of BDSup2Sub Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 478	As a side note, I am certain now, that the colors are stored as Y, Cr, Cb in a Blu-Ray PDS segment. This means that the colors displayed by SupRead, BDSup2Sub and my PS3 are correct.

3rd April 2009, 03:24	#175 \| Link
alc0re Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 91	I mean this in the kindest of ways...but I wish you as the developer would pursue fixing the output bd .sup so that it worked muxing with tsMuxer for avchd/bluray playback. I know you've said you need someone to respond to your asking for help regarding this issue...but the only way anyone is going to see that are the people that know about your program (and read the whole forum thread), and they for the most part are not developers with the knowledge to help with that issue. My wish is that you would pursue the developers of bd-rebuilder and/or tsMuxer for some help on this issue. This tool is very promising but its still lacking that feature. Now I know you're going to take my request that you pursue the issue with other developers with a grain of salt, since you are obviously not getting paid for developing this program, but I know I would be more than happy myself to pay for a program that could resize the original .sup to 1280x720 and have it work in a muxed avchd/bluray format. I appreciate your work on this program...if you don't have the time to fix this issue oh well. Thanks for your hard work on this program.

3rd April 2009, 05:44	#176 \| Link
turbojet Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,840	Thanks for the drag and drop, works well. alc0re: I have resized to 720p sup, muxed with tsmuxer 1.8.18-1.8.34 and they worked correctly on Panasonic BD30 and PS3. I've done this on about 15 so far. Is it the Panasonic BD35 you are having issues with? Have you tried other sups other then get smart?

3rd April 2009, 11:46	#178 \| Link
0xdeadbeef Author of BDSup2Sub Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 478	@rizu: 2.8 also fixes the problem with you stream. About the warning: while it's completely legal in HD-SUB and BD-SUPs to have no end time (which will just display the caption until the begin of the next caption), I decided to force end times as this allows me to export always exactly the same stream format. So a warning displayed by BDSup2Sub doesn't necessarily mean an authoring bug. Indeed palette and cropping animations will also generate warnings as BDSup2Sub can't (or doesn't want to) really handle them. Let's put it this way: a warning usually just means that BDSup2Sub doesn't like a certain stream structure and therefore isn't sure that the decoded caption is really correct. @turbojet: Did you try the explorer integration (see first posting or online help)? @alc0re: As I already pointed out, the matter is a little more complex than it might seem. In a nutshell the problem is that a player needs a certain time to decode the different parts of the subpicture to be able to display it at the scheduled time stamp. There are several additional time stamps in a transport stream that tell the player when to load a segment into its decoder so it's ready for display when it's needed. Since calculation of these timestamps is a little tricky and depends on buffer sizes and decoding frequencies, this is typically handled by the authoring tool. Since e.g. SUB/IDX files (and also HD-DVD-SUPs) don't contain this information at all, it's completely up to the muxer or authoring tool to create these time stamps. For whatever reason though, the guys who defined the BD-SUP format decided to let these time stamps in the demuxed SUP and most obviously, tsMuxer also uses them (without any further correction (?)) for Muxing. So now it's up to the tool that creates the SUP to somehow create these timestamps. As I already pointed out BDRebuilder cheats around this by simply not touching any relevant data and only moving the display offset (resulting in too big captions that may be partly outside the screen). I'm not quite sure about the BD-SUPs that SupRead exports if the source was a HD-DVD SUP. It seems to create at least some of the timestamps. Can't say how correct they are though. Anyway, currently BDSup2Sub uses static offsets (derived from some untouched SUPs exported by TsMuxer) to write more or less plausible values to these time stamps. Since they are not calculated and in no way related to the size of the segments or size of the caption, it's very likely that a player might get into trouble if it implements the buffer/speed limitations exactly and not muxer/authoring tool fixes the time stamps. This is especially likely for standalones, since due to memory/performance limitations, they have to rely on the offsets much more than a software player running on a high end PC. Then again, I was recently provided with some useful information that might help me to improve the situation. I'm actually currently digging through this and am kinda optimistic that I find a way to actually calculate the offsets instead of guessing them. It's kind of a major task though and may take a while. Also keep in mind that in the end, it's the muxer/authoring tool that has to put the pieces together correctly. It shouldn't be forgotten that replacing an M2TS transport stream with another one muxed with some free Muxer is a hack. It might work with some players/movies and it might not with others. We're really still in the stone age of re-authoring BDs and due to the complexity of the BD format and the fact that every (real, not AVCHD) BD must have AACS (which makes free authoring tools either illegal or pointless), chances are this won't change soon.

3rd April 2009, 15:51	#179 \| Link
alc0re Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 91	Thanks. I appreciate your feedback and a better explaination of the problem. Helps me understand what's going on. PS. I just tested, and the output bluray .sup file from your newest version does not crash suprip anymore. Last edited by alc0re; 3rd April 2009 at 16:02.

3rd April 2009, 17:07	#180 \| Link
rizu Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7	Thanks, that HD DVD stream works like a charm now About your reposition routine, while it works, it still makes subs jumpy as it always calculates sub position by lowest point on current bitmap. For example sub with any of y,g and q will be basically positioned higher than subs where font doesn't reach below normal level. Sub jumpiness is noticed especially if subs are positioned close to actual video frame as you kinda remember the gap to the frame. I can see few ways around this, first would search through all frames and get the lowest and highest bitmap positions on all subs and use it to calculate the amount subs which need to be repositioned.. Other simpler way would just mark the first found low and high position after repositioning.. eg if first low bitmap was lifted by 41px then lift all the rest by same amount too if lift value is somewhere around +-15px, that way you could keep subs from bouncing and not needing to go through all subs before determining a good value. As a side note, I'm kinda exicited how current HD sw tools are working now that time has passed from the early days. I can pretty much backup my entire HD collection and view those films now in about every mediaplayer without sacrificing picture or audio quality