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Old 23rd July 2015, 18:35   #32081  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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I do think the question of "which algorithm do studios/encoders most likely use to downscale footage" is an interesting question, since it will affect the look of what we're scaling and the usually unknown ground truth that we're trying to reach. I don't think it's likely to be Catmull-Rom LL AR if only because of madshi's anti-ringing algorithm - I'd imagine it would be either some form of Bicubic or Lanczos - or if they were going for a softer look maybe even Bilinear. Unfortunately that adds another variable to testing, and in the end you're just guessing.
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Old 23rd July 2015, 19:15   #32082  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Originally Posted by Akeno View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. The nature of scaling involves throwing away details when downscaling and preserving what details still exist when upscaling. Unless you had an analog source captured at two different optical zoom levels, this is the best we can do. Most digital sources we receive are going to be upscaled or downscaled using algorithms.
when watching a movie on a screen of a different size, there will also only be one instance of scaling, either downscaling or upscaling. so I wonder why we dont do the comparisons that way as well. instead we use the other scaling method as well which might just influence the scaling method we want to judge in some way.
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Old 23rd July 2015, 19:32   #32083  |  Link
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In my home i am watching almost 1080p high quality rip movies on 1080p 80 inch Tv. What is your suggestions for this watching type? I am not using image upcaling, downscaling and image doubling.i have core i7 cpu and gtx 690
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Old 23rd July 2015, 20:20   #32084  |  Link
har3inger
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Turn off every trade quality for performance tick box.

Pick something nice for chroma up scaling (nnedi3 is popular, but will make fan noise because it costs a lot)

Use one of the error diffusion dithering methods, or ordered dithering if fans are too loud.

Use smooth motion.

Set up the 3D lut for your display of you have the means to.

Play around with debanding and the source sharpener filters as you see fit.

Make sure you don't get dropped frames by checking stats with ctrl j

Enjoy.
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Old 23rd July 2015, 20:36   #32085  |  Link
bozokaydin
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Turn off every trade quality for performance tick box.

Pick something nice for chroma up scaling (nnedi3 is popular, but will make fan noise because it costs a lot)

Use one of the error diffusion dithering methods, or ordered dithering if fans are too loud.

Use smooth motion.

Set up the 3D lut for your display of you have the means to.

Play around with debanding and the source sharpener filters as you see fit.

Make sure you don't get dropped frames by checking stats with ctrl j

Enjoy.
Thank you. For Nnedi3 64 neurons chroma upsampling do i ihave to activate superres filter? Do you suggest me to use Madvr image enchantment sharpening?
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Old 23rd July 2015, 22:00   #32086  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by bozokaydin View Post
In my home i am watching almost 1080p high quality rip movies on 1080p 80 inch Tv. What is your suggestions for this watching type? I am not using image upcaling, downscaling and image doubling.i have core i7 cpu and gtx 690
These are my settings. If you have a good GPU, substituting NNEDI3 for super-xbr would make sense. A first step would be test for your display's compatibility with 10-bit output. There is a thread dedicated to this in the software forum. Based on the resolution of your display, it is most likely an 8-bit panel, but it is worth exploring, as this is a component of picture quality.

Profile: "1080p"
  • Chroma: super-xbr150 + AR
  • Image: Jinc3 + AR
  • Luma Doubling: Off
  • Upscaling Refinement: Off
  • Artifact Removal - Debanding: Medium/High
  • Image Enhancements: FineSharp (strength: 0.5)
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

Use of Image Enhancements are completely up to personal taste as any additional sharpening can look artificial to many people. I have embraced sharpening mostly because I am trying to stay current with the latest madVR features. I'm not totally sold on the look, however.

I would stay away from the SuperRes chroma filter. It is not nearly as useful as SuperRes when used from Upscaling Refinement.

Last edited by Warner306; 23rd July 2015 at 23:13.
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Old 23rd July 2015, 23:12   #32087  |  Link
Warner306
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Now that Kodi DSPlayer has integrated low latency mode, I have noticed a new issue. I believe this addition has made 1080p60 playback a little stuttery with some noticeable blurring on moving objects. It is subtle, but I cannot detect the same problem at 1080p24.

I have switched between MPC-BE and DSPlayer at 60hz and find DSPlayer is now less smooth - the blurring on objects being particularly noticeable.

Was 3/2 pulldown properly tested when low latency mode was added? Something does not look right at 1080p60 when played through DSPlayer.

Last edited by Warner306; 23rd July 2015 at 23:54.
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Old 24th July 2015, 00:11   #32088  |  Link
bozokaydin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
These are my settings. If you have a good GPU, substituting NNEDI3 for super-xbr would make sense. A first step would be test for your display's compatibility with 10-bit output. There is a thread dedicated to this in the software forum. Based on the resolution of your display, it is most likely an 8-bit panel, but it is worth exploring, as this is a component of picture quality.

Profile: "1080p"
  • Chroma: super-xbr150 + AR
  • Image: Jinc3 + AR
  • Luma Doubling: Off
  • Upscaling Refinement: Off
  • Artifact Removal - Debanding: Medium/High
  • Image Enhancements: FineSharp (strength: 0.5)
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

Use of Image Enhancements are completely up to personal taste as any additional sharpening can look artificial to many people. I have embraced sharpening mostly because I am trying to stay current with the latest madVR features. I'm not totally sold on the look, however.

I would stay away from the SuperRes chroma filter. It is not nearly as useful as SuperRes when used from Upscaling Refinement.
Yes my display is 8 bit. I am very pleased with the settings you offer for 1080p Bluray content. Thank you.
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Old 24th July 2015, 00:19   #32089  |  Link
har3inger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozokaydin View Post
Thank you. For Nnedi3 64 neurons chroma upsampling do i ihave to activate superres filter? Do you suggest me to use Madvr image enchantment sharpening?
You probably shouldn't activate the superres filter until it is developed a little more. In its current form it's not so good. nnedi3 64 neurons is also quite overkill for chroma upscaling, but since you have the GTX 690 to run it, may as well if the fan noise is tolerable.

SuperXBR is being actively developed like Warner mentions, and is a very cheap alternative to nnedi3 that still looks almost as good. Many people here would probably say that it's 2nd place for the best quality upscaler. You can play with the sharpness of that algorithm a bit as well. I find 150 can cause reds to pop unnaturally in a scene and use 100 instead, but it's basically whatever you think looks best. Sharper is noticeably better for animated content.

You can try out all the image enhancements for yourself easily by pausing a video, then turning on/off the settings to see what they do. It's all personal preference, so you need to see for yourself and come up with a combo that you find pleasing.

As a very general overview:

Finesharp enhances details and artifacts in the source. It can look good with exceptionally clean sources, but has a tendency to bring out ringing, blocking, and other artifacts (which are inevitable with almost all formats of compressed video with sane bitrates).

Lumasharpen is similar to what some games use for edge sharpening. It's a different look compared to finesharp. You might like it, you might not.

Adaptive sharpen tries to sharpen details more than artifacts in the source. In practice, it introduces some artifacts of its own sometimes. Again, try it yourself to see if it improves the image in your opinion.

Personally I use none of these and prefer a "purist" approach where I try to reproduce an image accurately instead of favoring heavy processing like sharpen filters.
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Old 24th July 2015, 00:39   #32090  |  Link
Akeno
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
when watching a movie on a screen of a different size, there will also only be one instance of scaling, either downscaling or upscaling. so I wonder why we dont do the comparisons that way as well. instead we use the other scaling method as well which might just influence the scaling method we want to judge in some way.
Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at. We are trying to achieve scaling that is closest to the image we have designated as groundtruth. The grountruth is what the image should look like after upscaling. We need to scale down the groundtruth in this case to produce an image that we will scale back up to approach the groundtruth unless you have a source that is identical except for size differences. If I'm wrong in assuming what you're saying, please feel free to help clarify.
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Old 24th July 2015, 03:51   #32091  |  Link
avinab
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Not able to change to NNEDI3

In build 88.20 when i am selecting NNEDI3 in chroma upscaling,it is showing JINC in OSD.Previously If i select NNEDI3 in chroma or image doubling MADVR crashes,but now its not crashing but shows JINC in OSD instead of NNEDI3.But it shows super-xbr,NEDI when i select those.I am on windows 10 build 10240.Nvidia driver 353.53 Geforce GTX 980.
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Old 24th July 2015, 08:09   #32092  |  Link
michkrol
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I'll assume NNEDI3 has never worked for you on (this installation of) Windows 10.
You are probably missing OpenCL, so I'd recommend installing drivers directly from nvidia's website.
The newest I could find is a hotfix: https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...eased-7-8-15-/
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Old 24th July 2015, 09:44   #32093  |  Link
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All kind people hello!
Version 0.88.16 during pause 0% GPU (MPC-HC 1.7.9.54);
Version 0.88.20 when paused consumes 40% of the GPU. - Перемудрил Мад;
(Win x64, Pentium E6600, nVidia GTX750 (DR 350.12).
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Old 24th July 2015, 09:54   #32094  |  Link
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All kind people hello!
Version 0.88.16 during pause 0% GPU (MPC-HC 1.7.9.54);
Version 0.88.20 when paused consumes 40% of the GPU. - Перемудрил Мад;
(Win x64, Pentium E6600, nVidia GTX750 (DR 350.12).
Thats expected, madVR now keeps drawing the frame while paused.
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Old 24th July 2015, 11:54   #32095  |  Link
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But 40%? Shouldn't only presenting be done while pausing (+maybe OSD changes), no scaling/filtering?
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Old 24th July 2015, 11:56   #32096  |  Link
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But 40%? Shouldn't only presenting be done while pausing (+maybe OSD changes), no scaling/filtering?
40% is a relative value, so without knowing the power state of the card, its not that meaningful.
It may have clocked down and show a high utilization.

But ultimately madshi will have to comment on what it really does in pause mode.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 24th July 2015 at 11:59.
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Old 24th July 2015, 12:13   #32097  |  Link
avinab
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Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
I'll assume NNEDI3 has never worked for you on (this installation of) Windows 10.
You are probably missing OpenCL, so I'd recommend installing drivers directly from nvidia's website.
The newest I could find is a hotfix: https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...eased-7-8-15-/

The nvidia site has 353.30 version as latest build.I was on that version.Same problem was happening.But yesterday i got a new display driver update from windows update.now the version is 353.50.But same problem still exists.
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Old 24th July 2015, 12:17   #32098  |  Link
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Just out of curiosity, what is everyone currently using for debanding strength and dithering mode?

Last edited by SecurityBunny; 24th July 2015 at 12:23.
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Old 24th July 2015, 13:25   #32099  |  Link
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@SecurityBunny

No debanding.

Error Diffusion 1 opt1+2 for 1080p ;
Ordered Dithering opt2 for other sources.
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Old 24th July 2015, 14:20   #32100  |  Link
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Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at. We are trying to achieve scaling that is closest to the image we have designated as groundtruth. The grountruth is what the image should look like after upscaling. We need to scale down the groundtruth in this case to produce an image that we will scale back up to approach the groundtruth unless you have a source that is identical except for size differences. If I'm wrong in assuming what you're saying, please feel free to help clarify.
my point is when watching a movie which needs to be upscaled it will not be downscaled first then. only upscaled. so the upscaled picture should be compared to the source image to clarify which algorythm comes closest to the source at this resolution. because thats simply the resolution this movie will be watched and not at the same resolution as the source image.

my point is that I am questioning this method of sclaling into the other direction first and then getting back to the original size of the image, because we dont know in how far the result of the first scaling process might influence the result of the 2nd one, the one we want to look at. you wouldnt have this problem when directly applying the scaling process you want and compare from there.
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