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#2381 | Link | |
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 51
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8K is going to have huge memory requirements regardless of the codec, though; I'd expect it to basically scale by the number of frames prerendered by the player rather with additional codec overhead being negligible. I almost wonder if the suspiciously low numbers are due to decoding being too slow to fill some internal buffer, with the MS (libaom) decoder being slower than dav1d in MPC. Last edited by Greenhorn; 7th January 2021 at 03:16. |
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#2382 | Link | |
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Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,595
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HW decoders have an easier time of it because they don't need frame-level parallel decoding nor RGB buffers since they can write 420 straight to GPU. But yeah, 4GB for 8K SW decoder seems quite plausible for me if a decent number of frames need to be buffered at different stages. None of that is specific to AV1, but AV1 is the only thing people are talking about doing 8K SW decode with. My own research hasn't found any content that actually looks better at 8K than 4K, so there's a whole lot of solution looking for a problem going on in that scenario. 8K YouTube looks better than 4K YouTube because YouTube is bit-starved at every resolution and bitrate |
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#2383 | Link |
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Coming to think of it, SW AV1 decoding is actually going to have an impact on global CO2 emissions. A CPU can easily draw 20 more watts in SW decode versus HW decode. 500K simultaneous YouTube viewers watching AV1 could be another 5 MWatt more power consumption and emissions than if YouTube used HEVC. Even assuming low-emissions NG plants, that would be around an extra megaton of global CO2 emissions an hour.
Yowza. |
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#2384 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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I've seen plenty 8bpc content without banding so it clearly isn't inherent and I doubt that the average human could tell the difference between 10 and 12 bpc content at all. |
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#2385 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 13
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#2386 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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That being said, the Samsung 8K TV models already have terrible power efficiency even without other issues coming in to play - I'm not sure whether it is to do with them having more FALD zones or just higher peak nits (or a combo of both) but the lowest efficiency rating their 4K QLED TVs have is B, whereas their 8K TV's can go as low as D (A being the best rating). There's also the hybrid decoder recently committed for XB1 and later consoles using DX shaders and UWP, it would be interesting to see what the power consumption on the XSX doing 8k AV1 decode when using that. Last edited by soresu; 11th January 2021 at 03:38. |
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#2388 | Link |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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It seems that at least Samsung's mobile division is pushing AV1 support going by their latest reveal at CES of the new Exynos 2100 SoC destined for Galaxy S21.
Given reports put AV1 support in 2020 QLED models I will wait until actual hardware is in reviewers hands before I dance for joy. |
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#2389 | Link | |
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And HDR with 8-bit is much harder. Just encoding Rec 2100 content in 8-bit yields a horrible mess. And it's challenging to detect full 4K detail in SDR for natural images, and in many cases impossible even by expert viewers. HDR is what makes 4K generally worthwhile for natural images. Seeing the difference between carefully selected 4K and 8K HDR moving images is only possible by expert viewers with 20/10 vision and only on a minority of "stress test" clips. Higher resolutions pay off a lot more for computer games, but that's more about the limitations of anti-aliasing technology and the much greater local contrast of synthetic graphics. Rendering games at 4K and downscaling to 1080p still looks a lot better than native 1080p gaming. |
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#2390 | Link | |
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The XSX decoder is probably better, but consoles are power beasts in general. Xbox and PS consoles generally draw >100 watts to just have something on the screen. Compare to things like Roku or Fire TV which draw <10 watts running full blast. Of course, when doing streaming over 4/5G, higher bandwidths also mean more antenna power, so there's some tradeoff there somewhere. Environmental organizations should really come out with a browser plugin to force YouTube et all to only stream the best codec that has a HW decoder. |
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#2391 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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I'm not sure if Chrome has an equivalent easily found switch to control AV1 playback capability. |
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#2392 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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When I wrote ">10 bpc" I only meant above 10 bpc, not 10 bpc and above. Some people write > to mean 'more than or equal to', for me it just means 'more than', and >= means 'more than or equal to'. Linguistic consequence of Python dabbling I think. As to the difference between 2K and 4K being visible without HDR, I would say that depends upon display size and the viewing distance. IMHO many people get screens too small to even appreciate the resolution uptick from SD to 1080p, and often sit too far away from the screen which only makes the issue worse. I have a 40 inch 1080p TV which I use as a PC monitor (50 cm away at most), and I can just about see the screen door effect of the pixel separation. Obviously this gets much worse for a 4K screen, and 8K is never going to be anything but a placebo to the consumer, unless viewing through VR with insane pixel res per eye and the right optics to capitalise on it. |
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#2393 | Link |
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,014
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rav1e v0.4.0 is out: https://github.com/xiph/rav1e/releases/tag/v0.4.0
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#2394 | Link |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 213
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/16390...z590-coming-q1
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16390/11900K.png Intel Rocket Lake supports AV1 fixed-function hardware decoding as per slide. |
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#2395 | Link | |||||
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#2396 | Link |
Derek Prestegard IRL
![]() Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,812
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Another aspect of VR is that when it comes to pre-produced content you're effectively rendering a 360 degree scene and then using equirectangular projection to fit that into a standard video frame size. During playback the player wraps that video inside a sphere and drops your viewport inside of that sphere. This means that you actually look at a small piece of the video. With a ~4K video and a ~2.5K head mounted display / headset with a typical FOV you're going to be looking at maybe 1/4 of the encoded resolution. The player of course has to upscale to hit the native HMD display. All of this means that you're basically watching sub HD video on a very dense screen as close as your eyes can focus
![]() 360 video is generally pretty boring, but to really maximize the potential you'd basically want a 16k video. Some companies (Pixvana) tried to get around this by cutting the video into slices and only streaming one or two at a time. This theoretically lets you get higher resolution during playback and lower bandwidth (since you're not streaming / decoding / processing everything you can't see). Ultimately 360 video just does not scale though, and the lack of parallax is disturbing and uncomfortable for many. Here's hoping for lots of neat developments in light field capture, compression, and delivery. The guys at Lytro were doing wild and crazy stuff a few years ago before they ran out of money. I wonder what Google is doing with all that IP... |
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#2397 | Link |
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Yeah, I've got ~7 patents on VR encoding and playback, and it's not something I see a way to make work for customers for scripted content. Video games are obviously a good fit for some genres, and some experiences more like museum curation can be great. But VR is mainly a new thing, not a new way to deliver old things.
And video quality is at least 15 years behind what we can do with a 2D flat screen. |
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#2398 | Link |
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,014
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Google to require all new android tv device model released after march 31st 2021 must include AV1 decode support: https://www.xda-developers.com/googl...ideo-decoding/
We will therefore see all new android tv box models having support and also some tv's also use android tv so they will support av1 too. |
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#2399 | Link | |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 184
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His impression was that it was potentially amazing (especially for potentially rendering green screen filming redundant), but that the processing and storage hardware was reminiscent of the early days of computers size wise, and not at all practical for production film use at that time (this was maybe early 2018). Google may well be simply concentrating on downsizing the technologies problems at the moment. Decreasing compute and storage demands to a reasonable level would go a long way towards making it viable for wider use, even if just for the VFX industry to begin with. OTOH if Lytro's patents are broad enough they may just be sitting back and waiting for a gold mine to mature when some other company does all that R&D heavy lifting for them. As someone who had to monkey about with messy green screen footage in NUKE I'm definitely excited by the possibilities in lightfield capture - though I would probably settle for just high res depth map data captured for each frame of video. |
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#2400 | Link | |
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Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,595
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The stuff was really complex on-set. It made early 3-strip Technicolor look simple. And while some components could be shrunk down, fundamentally you need a lot of lenses over a pretty wide area for the tech to work. |
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