"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[b66pak]

this is a VERY wrong approach...why butchering an already butchered audio (watermarked)?..you will end up with some CAM audio quality...where is the HD audio everyone likes in this?..the right think to do is to leave audio as it is and buy a linux based NMT which will play this backups...or custom firmwares for disabling the detection...
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[SamuriHL]

I've already said I plan on doing absolutely nothing about Cinavia, so... I just find it interesting that pitch changes break detection. I don't see that in and of itself as a means to defeat it. Simply an interesting insight into how the detection works. Considering there's only 1 confirmed disc with this stuff on it anyway, it's not really a big issue at the moment. However, given that the "test" seems to be successful so far you can probably bet on seeing more discs soon. As a result it makes sense to have some method of playing backups that doesn't involve Cinavia detection. My preferred method is an HTPC with open source software. Older BD players are another possible solution, at least for now. Some day someone will find a way to non-destructively remove it. Until then, it remains an interesting case study in content protection. At least to me.

[Guest]

We shouldn't break it too early. Wait until the player base is too large for them to change it based on vulnerabilities we expose in these early disks.

[b66pak]

again:

considering that watermaked audio IS NOT an encryption-decryption problem and is effective against rebuilding could a moderator move this thread to rebuilding forum?

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[Guest]

Not strictly decryption but it seems more appropriate here. Does it really matter?

[b66pak]

i think it matter...people going PRO with some rebuilding tools need to be aware that will be some heavy problems...
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[setarip_old]

I concur with "Neuron2" - especially since there is already a similar thread that includes posts expressing concern about potential rebuilding problems posed by "Cinavia", in the BD Rebuilder sub-forum.

(Perhaps there would be no cause for attempted hairsplitting if this sub-forum was renamed "Decryption/Copy Protection")

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by b66pak

i think it matter...people going PRO with some rebuilding tools need to be aware that will be some heavy problems...
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I gotta' ask... do you have a vested interest in Cinavia being successful? Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there -- but you sure seem to want this to sound more serious that it seems to be from my perspective. "Heavy problems" -- c'mon, that's a little premature don't you think when we're talking about one disc?

By the way, if you're talking about BD "Rebuilder" when you say "rebuilding tools"... there is no "PRO" (and probably never will be)... and it wouldn't matter anyway since BD Rebuilder doesn't do any kind of copy protection removal anyway (watermarking or otherwise -- and never will). So I certainly can't see why it would be appropriate to move it over there????

[setarip_old]

It's been 10 days since I started this thread and the only specifically confirmed report of "Cinavia" on the "Losers" BluRay disc that I've seen here or elsewhere has been regarding playback on a PS3. (As I mentioned, neither my SONY BDP S360 nor PowerDVD7.3 exhibited any indication of "Cinavia")

Is it possible that, despite the claims at this forum and others, the statement "all players manufactured starting with the third quarter of 2009" will be required to contain the necessary "Cinavia" reader component(s)" is Bovine Scatology?

I ask this because, despite such statements, a cursory review of the licensing page of AACS LA at:

http://www.aacsla.com/license/

yields the following opening statement:

Home » License AACS
Licensed content participants can use the AACS technology to protect content they distribute on next generation optical media. Licensed Adopters can manufacture, produce, and sell products that are AACS compliant.

Although I haven't as yet read the 187 page "Final Adopter Agreement", this statement appears to indicate that adoption of the "Cinavia" technology is OPTIONAL.

BTW Contrary to a recent posting about whether the Blu-Ray logo could appear on hardware not including the "Cinavia" component(s), it appears that the Blu-Ray logo is owned by the "Blu-Ray Disc Association", which has no direct connection to AACS LA...

[asarian]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Given my testing with the US retail release of The Losers, I can tell you right now that the "just remove the chapters" nonsense is NOT going to have any affect on this protection whatsoever.

And whoever even suggested so is an idiot; because this also affects streaming on the PS3 of a single m2ts file (with the main feature in it), which has no chapters at all.

[asarian]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

I gotta' ask... do you have a vested interest in Cinavia being successful? Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there -- but you sure seem to want this to sound more serious that it seems to be from my perspective. "Heavy problems" -- c'mon, that's a little premature don't you think when we're talking about one disc?

Conversely, may I ask, do you have a vested interested in downplaying the problem? Because I most certainly foresee "heavy problems" indeed; especially when HDMI video/audio card makers are also 'forced' to build this into their video/audio chips as well.

By the way, if you're talking about BD "Rebuilder" when you say "rebuilding tools"... there is no "PRO" (and probably never will be)... and it wouldn't matter anyway since BD Rebuilder doesn't do any kind of copy protection removal anyway (watermarking or otherwise -- and never will).

In other words, soon people can't use your BD 'Rebuilder' any more to make legitimate backups of their Blu-Rays. That may not present a problem to you, but the very existence of Cinavia on a backup effectively renders that backup useless (for regular playback on a Blu-Ray player). And since you're in the business of rebuilding BD's, you'd think you'd be worried too.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you try and remove any copy protection scheme into your software. I'm just saying that the inability to make backups (or, in my case, the inability to stream from my media server) is a matter that affects us all.

And lastly, the problem simply is big; if for nothing else, because even if it's cracked tomorrow, the concept of extracting a lossless audio track will be a thing of the past.

[setarip_old]

@asarian

Hi!

And whoever even suggested so is an idiot

In light of the fact that we presently have no way of knowing whether (as it was with Avatar) there were several different versions of the "Losers" BluRay released, we can't say with certainty that there wasn't a version that included a simplified, non-watermark protection scheme involving chapters, subtitles, or anything else.

BTW referring to others as "idiots", especially when they're trying to be helpful, is simply rude and shortsighted...

[asarian]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

@asarian

In light of the fact that we presently have no way of knowing whether (as it was with Avatar) there were several different versions of the "Losers" BluRay released, we can't say with certainty that there wasn't a version that included a simplified, non-watermark protection scheme involving chapters, subtitles, or anything else.

Fair enough. But then we're not talking about Cinavia any more, but about some other, totally unrelated, protection scheme. Unless radical new discoveries have been made which tie Cinavia to chapter info, we do know it's in the audio. And since Cinavia was reportedly detected while streaming as well, the only obvious conclusion must be that it cannot possible be in the chapter info.

[setarip_old]

@asarian

I guess you just don't get it - What if this "ruse" copy protection scheme involving chapters includes the word "CINAVIA" appearing on screen - and possibly even turns off the audio?

At this juncture, as I've alluded to previously, we haven't seen or heard about any meaningful number of proven "Cinavia"-affected players - only the PS3 (Read my Post #129)

[asarian]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

@asarian

I guess you just don't get it - What if this "ruse" copy protection scheme involving chapters includes the word "CINAVIA" appearing on screen - and possibly even turns off the audio?

I think you're stretching a bit here, just to argue that something Cinavia could also be inside chapters. Sure, there's always the theoretical possibility; but who would care? If that were the case, obviously it wouldn't just be in the chapter info, as that would make Cinavia extremely simple to circumvent (chapters can either be removed or rebuilt with great ease). And if it's also in the audio (which it is), then having it also in the chapter info would be utterly pointless.

[setarip_old]

Never mind...

[Peer van Heuen]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

Although I haven't as yet read the 187 page "Final Adopter Agreement", this statement appears to indicate that adoption of the "Cinavia" technology is OPTIONAL.

Recently I read through part of the agreement (didn't manage the whole thing, this type of document tends to make me sick).
From what I understoood, it is optional for disc manufacturers to embed it but the detection is mandatory for any "Licensed Access Product".
That agreement also has a clause that requires the licensee to adopt any future changes to the agreement or otherwise to opt out of the whole thing. I do feel sorry for all those who signed it.

So the way I see it, all players will have it soon.
Given the langage of these documents (§1: all apples are green, §1a: exceptions given in §41 apply, §41: except for apples listed in §541a, some apples that conform to §51: may also be red or of unspecified color, .... you know what I mean...), there's always a chance I may have misread something, but I don't think so.

[asarian]

On a Dutch PS3 forum I frequent someone just shared this (unconfirmed) report: *

"In order to watch your movie with sound you need to rewind just a bit when you receive the [Cinavia] message. And then, just before the message re-appears wind forward a bit, past where you would get the message. Then the software can't pick up on the stream any more, and you can watch your movie with audio, after all."

I'm amazed, for one, that there's not some kind of media-change detection (as in: the PS3 realizing you're still trying to play the same movie). Why, if this is true, it opens possibilities. :)

* Translated by me, of course.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by setarip_old

Never mind...

You're wasting your breath in discussing this nonsense with some of these folks. The sky is falling and no one will ever convince them otherwise. Either that or they have a vested interest and are spreading silliness to somehow get "Cinavia" mentioned in as many threads as possible so the non-technicals will start running scared.

Meanwhile everybody else will continue backing up their blu-rays as this whole thing shrinks steadily into obscurity (where it belongs).

Originally Posted by asarian

Conversely, may I ask, do you have a vested interested in downplaying the problem?

Anyone who has ever actually produced freeware with voluntary donations knows that they would make more money mowing a lawn... In other words, I go further in the hole every week just by throwing money away to buy blu-rays for testing -- as I did when I bought "The Losers" only to find that it backed up fine to BD-25 using nothing but AnyDVD HD alone. I played it back on my Sony S360 (which I've seen reported to have Cinavia included in the latest firmware). To make it even worse, I had to watch the whole thing just to be sure -- and the movie completely sucks and may actually be the catalyst for a new "worst acting in a villian" Oscar. So if I had a vested interest, I guess it would be a hope that this garbage actually was as hideous as you all wish, so I could go back to doing something worthwhile and profitable with my time.

But, I'm confident that the clever people at Slysoft will make short work of this thing... assuming it ever even gets off the ground.

I'm outta' here.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by Peer van Heuen

Recently I read through part of the agreement (didn't manage the whole thing, this type of document tends to make me sick).
From what I understoood, it is optional for disc manufacturers to embed it but the detection is mandatory for any "Licensed Access Product".
That agreement also has a clause that requires the licensee to adopt any future changes to the agreement or otherwise to opt out of the whole thing. I do feel sorry for all those who signed it.

So the way I see it, all players will have it soon.
Given the langage of these documents (§1: all apples are green, §1a: exceptions given in §41 apply, §41: except for apples listed in §541a, some apples that conform to §51: may also be red or of unspecified color, .... you know what I mean...), there's always a chance I may have misread something, but I don't think so.

Oh man, I can't believe you actually went and read that! That's something that would give me a migraine. Thanks for the info, though, that's very enlightening and slightly depressing. Still, we apparently have time as so far there's only one or maybe two discs that contain this at the moment. From what I read it looks as though all the studios have signed on to use it at some point. So we can expect to see more of it going forward.