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Old 31st May 2018, 06:01   #51081  |  Link
ryrynz
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Is there a HDR test video that one could use for setting ideal target nits?
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Old 31st May 2018, 08:03   #51082  |  Link
sauma144
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
In PCM mode PotPlayer just "cheats" by modifying the audio to perfectly match the video clock, ie. like ReClock. You could get it to match any refresh rate then.
Seriously? I never noticed.
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Old 31st May 2018, 10:31   #51083  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
As for the levels thing, I think this is a JVC projector oddity. I was trying to help someone with a JVC projector at AVSForums and his projector displays the strangest behavior. Every time he would fix something, something else would break. It is the most bizzare machine I have come across that runs madVR. His graphics card is a GTX 1050. He actually posted in this forum, so he might be reading this. I know you haven't had as many problems with your JVC, but it doesn't seem to like Windows or anything output from a GPU.
I was in touch with him by PM. This is because he was using a recent driver (39x.x). As I reported yesterday, each 39x version broke something new, at least here. The best driver to use with a JVC is 385.28. With this, you can get correct levels in RGB Full, 12bits in SDR and HDR, and he will only get the magenta bug (which can be fixed, as I told him, by disabling "Sending HDR metadata) at 4K60p.

With a recent driver, he can solve things if he disables "Send HDR Metadata" and uses 8bits in the GPU. But that's not an option for me at this stage (I need the metadata for the Vertex), so I went back to 385.28 for now.

The main downside of 385.28 is 3D (1 frame drop repeat every 3mn vs every 13mn with 397.93), and very minor banding in HDR passthrough (not sure when that was introduced by nVidia, but it's still here with 39x.x). You can solve most of the banding in passthrough using 9bits instead of 10bits dithering in MadVR, unfortunately that's not possible with the latest MadVR build, so you have to revert to the previous one.

The JVCs do have some quirks, but they can be used fine if you know how to drive them
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Last edited by Manni; 31st May 2018 at 11:01.
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Old 31st May 2018, 10:52   #51084  |  Link
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Will madvr work with an intel HD 630 onboard graphics? Looking at the requirements, I'd say yes...but you never know. Anybody has tried it?
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Old 31st May 2018, 12:27   #51085  |  Link
madjock
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Will madvr work with an intel HD 630 onboard graphics? Looking at the requirements, I'd say yes...but you never know. Anybody has tried it?
Depends what you mean by work, since it is not a dedicated card with its own memory then you will be very limited on what you could do with madVR.

Last edited by madjock; 31st May 2018 at 12:35.
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Old 31st May 2018, 15:46   #51086  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I was in touch with him by PM. This is because he was using a recent driver (39x.x). As I reported yesterday, each 39x version broke something new, at least here. The best driver to use with a JVC is 385.28. With this, you can get correct levels in RGB Full, 12bits in SDR and HDR, and he will only get the magenta bug (which can be fixed, as I told him, by disabling "Sending HDR metadata) at 4K60p.

With a recent driver, he can solve things if he disables "Send HDR Metadata" and uses 8bits in the GPU. But that's not an option for me at this stage (I need the metadata for the Vertex), so I went back to 385.28 for now.

The main downside of 385.28 is 3D (1 frame drop repeat every 3mn vs every 13mn with 397.93), and very minor banding in HDR passthrough (not sure when that was introduced by nVidia, but it's still here with 39x.x). You can solve most of the banding in passthrough using 9bits instead of 10bits dithering in MadVR, unfortunately that's not possible with the latest MadVR build, so you have to revert to the previous one.

The JVCs do have some quirks, but they can be used fine if you know how to drive them
Well I'm glad you helped him. He was using 385.28 when I talked to him and was still having black screens and some oddities with 3D playback, so I'm not sure if it has all been ironed out.

Last edited by Warner306; 31st May 2018 at 16:44.
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Old 31st May 2018, 16:20   #51087  |  Link
veggav
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Quick question

My TV has the following color spaces to choose from
sRGB/BT.709
DCI
Adobe RGB
BT.2020

And MadVR has the following options in "the display is calibrated to the following primaries / gamut:
BT.709
SMPTE C
EBU / Pal
BT2020
DCI-P3

I let madVR change my display resolution to 2160p23 for movies.
So my question is if I'm playing a blu-ray that is bt709 and have DCI on my display settings and DCI-P3 on MadVR, do I get better colors?


Also, when using the pure power curve option set to 2.40 would that translate to the gamma option -2 of the display.
I mean 2.30 = -1 and 2.20 = 0?
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Old 31st May 2018, 16:25   #51088  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggav View Post
Quick question

My TV has the following color spaces to choose from
sRGB/BT.709
DCI
Adobe RGB
BT.2020

And MadVR has the following options in "the display is calibrated to the following primaries / gamut:
BT.709
SMPTE C
EBU / Pal
BT2020
DCI-P3

I let madVR change my display resolution to 2160p23 for movies.
So my question is if I'm playing a blu-ray that is bt709 and have DCI on my display settings and DCI-P3 on MadVR, do I get better colors?


Also, when using the pure power curve option set to 2.40 would that translate to the gamma option -2 of the display.
I mean 2.30 = -1 and 2.20 = 0?
The calibration setting only applies to SDR content like 1080p Blu-ray. Yes, madVR will upconvert a BT.709 source to DCI-P3 or BT.2020 (which is the recommended setting). I'm not sure you will get better colors, but you will get different colors. It depends on whether you like this effect or not.

The gamma setting is only in effect when enable gamma processing is selected. It is generally advised to set the gamma at the display level rather than the media player.
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Old 31st May 2018, 16:43   #51089  |  Link
arcspin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I was in touch with him by PM. This is because he was using a recent driver (39x.x). As I reported yesterday, each 39x version broke something new, at least here. The best driver to use with a JVC is 385.28. With this, you can get correct levels in RGB Full, 12bits in SDR and HDR, and he will only get the magenta bug (which can be fixed, as I told him, by disabling "Sending HDR metadata) at 4K60p.
Hi Manni,
I have a question regarding when I set the NVIDIA GPU Driver to 12 bits the green colors and blacks/whites are all messed up, when I switch back to 8 bits all is well.

I have tried this in Full screen exklusive mode (to take into account the missing 10 bit feature in the current MadVR).
I have, with a great deal of help from Asmodian, in another thread debugged my system and the end result is that I have to set NVIDIA GPU Driver to 8 bits to get the colors and blacks/whites to work properly.

The end result from our de bugging session is here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...08#post1841508

I have my NVIDIA GPU Driver set to:
NVIDIA RGB Full 8bpc > Madvr custom level 16-255 > JVC Enhanced.
I get the same result in: NVIDIA RGB Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard
(My projector is professionally calibrated to JVC Enhanced)


This is what I use:
WIN 10 64-bit, version 1709 (no spring update) with NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 driver)
I have also in NVIDIA control panel made a custom resolution for 3840 x 2160 23.978hz to get a low clock deviation in MadVR.
JRiver (24.0.20, 64-bit) with Madvr (0.92.14)
JVC RS420/X5500 projector (4K, capable of receiving 12-bit).



Do you have an idea why I cant get the green and blacks/whites to work in 12 bits?


Best regards,

//Peter
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Old 31st May 2018, 16:52   #51090  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Is there a HDR test video that one could use for setting ideal target nits?
A colorimeter would do the job of telling you how bright your display is. Maybe you could adjust the target nits with HDR grayscale test patches up to 10,000 nits, but I don't know how that would work. Such patterns might help with adjusting the brightness for lower nits.
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Old 31st May 2018, 17:00   #51091  |  Link
veggav
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The calibration setting only applies to SDR content like 1080p Blu-ray. Yes, madVR will upconvert a BT.709 source to DCI-P3 or BT.2020 (which is the recommended setting). I'm not sure you will get better colors, but you will get different colors. It depends on whether you like this effect or not.

The gamma setting is only in effect when enable gamma processing is selected. It is generally advised to set the gamma at the display level rather than the media player.
Thanks for the information.

About gamma there's no option to change it to disable on MadVR.
Only pure power curve and bt709.
At the tab color & gamma I have enable gamma processing unchecked.
Still I can see some difference changing pure power curve from 2.2 to 2.4 while watching a movie.
I guess if you set calibration to this diplay is already calibrated you need to set gamma.

The only other option I see is disable GPU gamma ramps, that is unchecked here. Is this what you are reffering?
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Old 31st May 2018, 17:54   #51092  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by arcspin View Post
Do you have an idea why I cant get the green and blacks/whites to work in 12 bits?
No idea. All is fine here with 385.28 in 12bits, but I do use RGB Full > MadVR 16-235 > HDMI Standard on the JVC. I calibrate the JVC with Calman using MadTPG as a pattern source (best as the patterns come from the source I'll be using) and it only works with video levels, not with enhanced levels.

The only other significant difference I can think of is that I use MadVR's refresh rate custom modes, not nVidia's or CRU. I use the EDID/CTA option and it gives me 50-60mn between a frame drop, which is not perfect but good enough for me.

At the moment, there is nothing to lose using 8bits though, so I'd just set the GPU to 8bits, MadVR to 8bits dithering and enjoy, as MadVR doesn't support 10bits in Windowed mode anymore, and Exclusive is not usable with the JVCs due to the time to do the HDMI resync everytime you use the player's interface.
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Last edited by Manni; 31st May 2018 at 18:03.
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Old 31st May 2018, 19:18   #51093  |  Link
x7007
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For you guys every Windows restart the Dynamic Output Range revert back to FULL ? even when it was Limited before windows restart with 397.93 Also the Digital Audio always change to LG TV instead Turn off audio... 2 annoying bugs.
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Old 31st May 2018, 19:35   #51094  |  Link
arcspin
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
No idea. All is fine here with 385.28 in 12bits, but I do use RGB Full > MadVR 16-235 > HDMI Standard on the JVC. I calibrate the JVC with Calman using MadTPG as a pattern source (best as the patterns come from the source I'll be using) and it only works with video levels, not with enhanced levels.

The only other significant difference I can think of is that I use MadVR's refresh rate custom modes, not nVidia's or CRU. I use the EDID/CTA option and it gives me 50-60mn between a frame drop, which is not perfect but good enough for me.

At the moment, there is nothing to lose using 8bits though, so I'd just set the GPU to 8bits, MadVR to 8bits dithering and enjoy, as MadVR doesn't support 10bits in Windowed mode anymore, and Exclusive is not usable with the JVCs due to the time to do the HDMI resync everytime you use the player's interface.
Ok, thanx for answering back.
Yup, I'm all good in 8 bits, it just annoys me a little bit not to know the cause.

I will test the MadVR refresh rate and see if that might do some good.
I got some great results with NVIDIAS custom refresh rates and only have 2 dropped frames in a 2h43m 1080p movie.


Question:
I quite don't understand where to set MadVR to 8bits dithering. The only place I can find to set bitdepth in MadVR is in devices (my JVC), properties and "the native display bitdepth is:"
What is improved between setting it to "8 bit" or "10 bit or higher", if GPU is set to 8 bit?

Last edited by arcspin; 31st May 2018 at 19:55.
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Old 31st May 2018, 20:08   #51095  |  Link
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It is much better to set madVR to 8 bit with the GPU set to 8 bit, madVR would dither to 10 bit and then the GPU would dither to 8 bit. This is two dithering steps instead of one and madVR's dithering is better quality than the GPU's.

There is a separate settings page for dithering options. Never disable dithering for any reason (except testing).
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Old 31st May 2018, 21:17   #51096  |  Link
Polopretress
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But thats perfectly fine. The goal is to not have any frame drops or repeats, not to hit some special magical number. Its perfectly expected to require a slightly different refresh rate to compensate for the clock deviation.

The perfect refresh rate would be where the display refresh rate multiplied by the clock deviation would be 23.97602 (without software tricks enabled), so for example if you have a small clock deviation of 0.003, you would want a refresh rate of 23.9767 instead (because 23.9760 + 0.003% = 23.9767)

And as others have said, in PCM mode PotPlayer just "cheats" by modifying the audio to perfectly match the video clock, ie. like ReClock. You could get it to match any refresh rate then. But it does modify the audio, so its no longer "bit-exact". Its probably not something anyone can hear and it usually works just fine, but you need to be aware that your software works around the hardware problem in this manner. The clock deviation does not go away, its just "hidden" from madVR and compensated for on the audio side instead. And of course this does not work when bitstreaming.

The entire drop/repeat frame mechanic only exists because of audio. If we had no audio, we could just show the video at 23.977 instead of 23.976 and no person in the world would ever notice. But we do have audio, and the audio would lose sync with the video. So to maintain sync, the video renderer has to drop/repeat a frame when appropriate. Now the alternative solution is to change the audio instead, which is what PotPlayer is doing, and why its claiming a zero clock deviation - because it handles that, and madVR does not have to.

The only number that really matters is the number of dropped/repeated frames at the end of the movie. Everything else is just there as information.
Just thank you for this explanation.
I have developped a calculation sheet under excel to identify variante of trio [ total pixel V & H , pixel clock] that match perfect settings. Of course, with potplayer , when i have "no drop frame expected" i am at 23.97602 at the display and did notice this problem with clock deviation that i have , after that, tacking into account for some people using player with an existing clock deviation.

Then at that time, my question for this people was :
-do i need to give them the good setting to reach 23.97602 ?
or
- do i need to give them the good setting to reach "no drop frame expected" ?

I was pretty sure that it was the first solution but you give the information that i rather must choose the second solution.

Is that correct ?

I can trust you but it is a strange conclusion for me since for the same setting of GPU, if i compare potplayer (in pcm) without clock deviation and mpc-be (in pcm or also potplayer in bitstream) with a given clock deviation, i can see that value of display is the same (after stabilization)
Based on your answer, i would expect, that "no drop frame expected" would be displayed instead of the same "display" value.

means that with your assumption, if i have to target "no drop frame expected" in the calculation, i have a different setting depending on the player. It is very strange.


and also, i was not aware for the "reclock" of potplayer in PCM.
Strange also since i am set in wasapi bit perfect.

Last edited by Polopretress; 1st June 2018 at 00:16.
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Old 31st May 2018, 22:31   #51097  |  Link
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- do i need to give them the good setting to reach "no drop frame expected" ?
This, the audio clock is never perfect so you must always target a refresh rate that is perfect relative your audio clock, not true clock time.

wasapi bit perfect is bit perfect between the player and the sound card, it doesn't mean anything about what happens in the player.
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Old 31st May 2018, 22:34   #51098  |  Link
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the display HZ is relative to the system clock so it doesn't matter.

the clock deviation comes from the video clock and the audio clock so it kind of matters.

23.9702 is just a number that is totally worthless.

what you want is no frame drop the rest doesn't matter.

who the hell told you wasapi is bit perfect... as soon as you change the volume you are not bit perfect anymore and nothing stops you from running a couple filter on the audio before sending it to a wasapi end device.
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Old 31st May 2018, 23:42   #51099  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by veggav View Post
Thanks for the information.

About gamma there's no option to change it to disable on MadVR.
Only pure power curve and bt709.
At the tab color & gamma I have enable gamma processing unchecked.
Still I can see some difference changing pure power curve from 2.2 to 2.4 while watching a movie.
I guess if you set calibration to this diplay is already calibrated you need to set gamma.

The only other option I see is disable GPU gamma ramps, that is unchecked here. Is this what you are reffering?
If you changed the gamma, you would see a fairly significant change in brightness. This setting can't be disabled but can be ignored if you disabled gamma processing. You could also disable calibration controls if outputting at BT.709, as this is the default behavior without a selected calibration.
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Old 1st June 2018, 00:22   #51100  |  Link
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Ok, thank you.
Then i must change my conclusion and give result considering the time before to drop instead of the value of the display.
(but in this case, settings of the GPU card will be different depending on the player...)
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