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Old 24th December 2002, 05:12   #41  |  Link
midiguy
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..

the blurring that you are seeing with real media clips is done by the built in post-processing of the REALPLAYER. the "blurryness" is not actually in the video file. Apparently, in the next version of the Realone player, it will allow us to configure the post-processing. also, the realone player, as it is now, tries to automatically detect a good post-processing level, so I would have to disagrtee with that even at very high bitrates RV9 is "blurry". try encoding a clip at, say, 2500 kbps. it will be a very sharp image. the realone player only post-processes like crazy when it detects too much video noise or pixelation, or not even. yes, it is WAY too harsh, but that is only because the real PLAYER was designed too play STREAMING media where more post-processing might be needed to clean up the clip. real networks is starting to understand that they could also support high quality high bitrate video, so future improvments in their player is inevitable the way I see it.

sorry about spelling/grammatical errors, I'm tired.

p.s.: what the hell is "ofkoz"? does it mean "of coarse"?

Last edited by midiguy; 24th December 2002 at 05:14.
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Old 24th December 2002, 06:31   #42  |  Link
iwod
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I know MPC could play RM.. but does MPC has post processing build in as well??
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Old 24th December 2002, 20:24   #43  |  Link
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Hi guys, I'm a somewhat newbie so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've made about 40 or 50 encodes with Gordian Knot and divx5 and just made my first two encodes with AutoRV9. All I can say is wow! The AutoRV9 encodes in my opinion are far superior to anything I have been able to get with divx. The colors are closer to the original, the lighting is more natural and the detail is higher.

My first two encodes with AutoRV9 were The Waterboy and Can't Hardly Wait. I encoded both movies so each would fit on a 900 meg CD. This turned out to be 1280 bits for Can't Hardly Wait and 1500 bits for The Waterboy. I chose these two movies because they are at opposite extremes for compressability.

Can't Hardly Wait compresses very easily so it is easy to get a good encode of it with divx. The divx encode was with pro features of B frames and Psy. enhancements to normal. This resulted in a 76% comp test result at 576x320 with a sharp resize filter. I encoded the AutoRV9 copy at the same resolution. The divx encode looked good but suffered from the regular divx drawbacks. Edges where fuzzy and there was a general lack of detail. The RV9 encode looks wonderful. In almost every scene there is more detail in faces, clothes and background. The lighting is closer to the original and the colors are what they should be. When comparing the two encodes next to eachother I noticed that the divx encode had a greenish tint to it that wasn't in the original. Because the divx encode was of such high quality the comparison was close but the RV9 encode was clearly better.

The Waterboy is very difficult to compress and therefor it was very difficult for me to get a good encode of it with divx. I tried different resolutions with different resize filters and finally decided on a comp test of 67% at 512x272 with a neutral resize filter. The results were OK but not great. The RV9 encode at the same resolution was far superior. Once again colors where closer to the original without a greenish tint to them. Lighting was more natural and detail was obviously superior. There is one scene in the movie where The Waterboy walks into his mother house. It is a very difficult scene because of the detail in the livingroom. With divx this scene looked horrible. With RV9 this scene looks very nice, not perfect, but far superior to divx.

I hope this helps people. In my opinion RV9 is the way to go.

Bill
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Old 25th December 2002, 03:28   #44  |  Link
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yes, unfortuantely, MPC has the post-processing built in as well. to make a correction to my earlier post, I beleive that it is the real video DECODER doing the post-processing, and not the real player. I think the post-processing is built into the decoder itself. I know that the actual file has NO pre-processing built into it, so the blrryness you see has to be coming from the decoder or player. I tihnk it would be coming from the decoder because the blurryness even exists when you play your file with MPC (so that counts real player out). but I think that the post-processing is disabled or is very light if your clip was encoded at a high bitrate. I've only seen this "blurryness" only SOMETIMES with low bitrate encodes usually less than 600 kbits. and once again, I've heard that in the next version, you will be able to control the post-processing,. and not only that, the API is coming out soon I beleive. once it is out, developers should esaily be able to make something to control the post-processing levels of the decoder. other things that could be possible would be to be able to import real media files in, say, virtualdub, or possibly even encode right out of virtualdub or a similar editor. good things are coming!
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Old 31st December 2002, 17:17   #45  |  Link
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Karl, I'm sorry what I'm saying may sound stupid but why don't you guys distribute the Helix Producer for free?

You know you have a lot of good competitors which are free (even WM9!). I'm not saying open source, just a "non-basic" version for free.

I got really interested in Helix Technology, but I'd still rather use free ones.
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Old 31st December 2002, 17:30   #46  |  Link
karl_lillevold
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rash
Karl, I'm sorry what I'm saying may sound stupid but why don't you guys distribute the Helix Producer for free
That's a good idea, and exactly what the price is right now (free). Go to https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/. Pre-compiled binaries are now available as well, so you no longer have to build it from source/binary codecs.

Sign up, agree to the license, and the binary EULA, and get 9.1 Milestone 1 (2002-Dec-16), command line app. This has the exact same features as the GUI. You can use AutoRV9 as a GUI front-end if you like. There may be other GUI front-ends as well. I know at least one was created when RV9 was first released in alpha release, as a command line encoder only.
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Old 1st January 2003, 14:05   #47  |  Link
Latexxx
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Talking about my gui?
I tested it. it also works with new Helix Producer. One question: Does the binary version support yv12 encoding or do have to build it by myself to get it working?
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Old 1st January 2003, 17:03   #48  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Latexxx
Talking about my gui?
I tested it. it also works with new Helix Producer. One question: Does the binary version support yv12 encoding or do have to build it by myself to get it working?
Ah, yes. Excellent! I have added your tool to the first post (RV9 Info) in this thread.

The Helix Producer M1 build works fine with YV12, but there may be a ~20% loss in encoding speed unless you convert to YUY2 as the last step in the AVS script. With YUY2 conversion, the loss is ~5%.
I think they plan on building M2 (Milestone 2) this Friday, with YV12 no-extra-color-conversion support *)

*) Still has to swap chroma planes (U and V) to get from YV12 to I420. I would like to remove even this step and swap pointers inside the codec instead, but have not had time. I measured the potential speed improvement though, and it's really really minor.
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Old 2nd January 2003, 01:46   #49  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by karl_lillevold
That's a good idea, and exactly what the price is right now (free). Go to https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/. Pre-compiled binaries are now available as well, so you no longer have to build it from source/binary codecs.
Thanks Karl
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Old 3rd January 2003, 13:03   #50  |  Link
Wilbert
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Sign up, agree to the license, and the binary EULA, and get 9.1 Milestone 1 (2002-Dec-16), command line app. This has the exact same features as the GUI. You can use AutoRV9 as a GUI front-end if you like. There may be other GUI front-ends as well. I know at least one was created when RV9 was first released in alpha release, as a command line encoder only.
I've done this. I have a login and a password, but if I click on "binaries" I got the message "Your account does not have the "Project Document - View" permission needed for you to access the page you requested in the distribution project (...)"

How do I get the binaries?
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Old 3rd January 2003, 15:58   #51  |  Link
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Try agreeing with more licences. I did what Karl told me and I got the binaries.
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Old 4th January 2003, 15:57   #52  |  Link
Wilbert
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I give up. I already agreed to the Binary EULA lincense, I still can't download the binaries. If I try to agree with the RPSL or RCSL I got the same message "Your account does not have the "Project Document - View" permission needed for you to access (...)". I don't know what to do ...
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Old 4th January 2003, 17:03   #53  |  Link
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For some reason it sounds like the automatic setting of permissions when you have agreed to a license is not working for your username.

If you initially signed up a while back, I would suggest you sign up again with a different name, and try again. If this does not work, please send me a pm with your username and I will forward the problem or You can also sign on to the Helix IRC channel and ask there. Most of the time there is someone there who can help, at least during west coast working hours.
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Old 4th January 2003, 17:53   #54  |  Link
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Thanks! It's working now after using a different name.
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Old 5th January 2003, 19:01   #55  |  Link
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RV Playback on Tungsten T

Karl, do you have any suggestions for encoding w/ RV9 for playback on Plam's Tungsten T? I would expermement but the player isnít released yet.

Iíve been on many of the handheld sites defending real, but the Palm users are upset the player didnít ship in 2002 and anachronistically complaining about RealPlayer 8. If you can reply, hopefully they will experiment w/ Real and see it isn't the scourge of the earth.

My apologies to the moderators, I know the form isnít for this, but w/o the last paragraph I would be flamed. (well i may be anyway)

Ibjr
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Old 6th January 2003, 03:23   #56  |  Link
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Re: tungsten player

Oh, I wish I had one of those.

I am afraid the first version of the tungsten player will be audio only. It will be very different from any RealPlayer 8. Why it takes so long - I am not sure, but it's not only development at RealNetworks. There's been bug fixes even in PalmOS to get it to work right.
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Old 8th January 2003, 21:23   #57  |  Link
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producer supported input formats

I just added this to the first info post:

Supported input formats to producer
It may not be well known, but on Windows, producer can transcode any format you can play back with a DirectShow player (like Media Player Classic). This means you can directly encode .MPG, .WMV, .ASF, .D2V, .AC3, .AVI (uncompressed, compressed, XviD, DivX), .AVS (of course), and even .VOB files, as long as you have the DirectShow filters installed such that the files are playable in your DS media player of choice.

Of course, be aware that if your source has low enough bitrate to have compression artifacts, these are faithfully re-compressed. For instance, I transcoded a certain 1280x720p HDTV demo, which has plenty of blockiness and ringing problems, especially during scene transitions, all of it which was reproduced on playback of the RV9 clip
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Old 12th January 2003, 14:12   #58  |  Link
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hi,

does rv9 with smil launcher can read .rmvb and .ac3 or .ogg or .aac ?
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Old 12th January 2003, 22:30   #59  |  Link
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alternative audio formats with RV9

With smil you can mix any format that can be played with RealOne. So currently, you can mix RV9 and WAV. I tried to create a WAV file containing AC3 using headac3he, and mplayerc/AC3Filter showed that the file indeed contained 5.1 AC3 channels, but sounded like random noise, so clearly my AC3-WAV creation did not work correctly.

Still, with the SMIL code at the bottom, I could play back this RV9/AC3-WAV combination in RealOne on Windows (but still sounded like random noise). I'll post an update if I can figure out the proper AC3-WAV creation method.

With regards to other formats than WAV you will need a file format plugin and renderer plugin for RealOne to be able to read them. For instance, if you try .ac3, RealOne will phone home and try to find a file format plugin (unsuccessfully). Such plugins should not be terribly hard to write -- perhaps a nice challenge for someone in the Helix Community? It would be nice to play back .ogg / .ac3 / .aac files in RealOne.

More challenging, but technically possible given Helix source code, one could imagine an .ogg file writer in producer, writing out RV9 + Vorbis audio, and the matching Ogg file format plugin and Vorbis audio renderer for playback in RealOne. I won't speak for what the Helix licenses say about this possibility, just that it is technically possible.

Example SMIL code:
<smil>
<head>
<layout>
<region id="VideoChannel1" left="0" top="0" height="304" width="720"/>
</layout>
</head>
<body>
<par title="audio video mixer test">
<video src = "stream2.rmvb" region="VideoChannel1"/>
<audio src = "stream2.wav"/>
</par>
</body>
</smil>
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Old 13th January 2003, 07:16   #60  |  Link
ReTroAcTive
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autorv9

i downloaded autorv9 and used it on a few clips. it seems to do quite well, im surprised. its much better then anything i have seen in the rv format sense they started streaming audio. ide say the rv format is almost perfected with rv9, i only say almost because you cant tune the post-processing of the player. im going to try a full movie, maybe a 2 disc so i can try that (split total file after) option.
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