vertical subtitles (for korean/japanese)

[ghy]

i'm trying to figure out if there's a way to add vertical subtitles onto a dvd. does anyone know if it's possible, and how i would go about doing it?

[CoNS]

Sorry, no... Just out of curiousity, how do those subtitles look? could you post a screenshot with an example?

[ghy]

it should look something like this.. this is how they show subtitles for movies in japanese/korean theaters

[CoNS]

Lol, looks funny when you're used to the normal horizontal subs!

But the Korean/Japanese retail DVDs don't have the vertical ones, do they?

Hmm, you might wanna try contacting Paddington, who's the author of SubtitleCreator. If it's a feature that many would find useful, you may be able to convince him to add a feature for this in SC... Look in the stickies for the SC thread.

[mic]

Should be possible if you use DVDA. I *think* it would just be a matter of rearranging the box holding the sub text, and this is something DVDA allows. After a quick check, looks like it might be possible using SubtitleCreator -- probably available in a few other apps too. Just use a tall, narrow box where each character appears on it's own line.

[unmei]

I have no idea of DVD-authoring, but i think a narrow high box will only work as long as there is no more than one line on-screen. Just watch the alignment on the bottom and i suppose you read this from right-to-left. As long as you only have one line it should work tho.

[mic]

Originally Posted by unmei

i think a narrow high box will only work as long as there is no more than one line on-screen.

You're right -- took me a few minutes but I understand what you mean -- what I think of as a row being a line. The only other train of thought I can think of at the moment would be to alter bitmap subs.

It would be more of a pain then difficult to create bitmap subs twice, in a format where each sub is a separate file, then batch process in a graphics app to overlay one line on the other. On the other hand, I think if I had to do it I'd create a sideways font (no big deal in something like Fontographer). Then after importing text subs in horizontal format I'd switch to that font, create individual bitmap subs, then batch process to rotate and save on frame sized background.

Maybe something to think about if no one comes up with an app better suited to dealing with this sort of prob?

[CoNS]

Why wouldn't the solution with a tall narrow box work with more lines than one?

It would just be a matter of where to put the line break, no?

Like this:

H i
e s
l 
l a
o
, t
  e
t s
h t
i !
s

As I wrote above, maybe Paddington could be convinced to add support for this in SC if it's a big wish. He would have to raise the number of subtitle lines allowed in the target area box, and make some sort of automatic line break algorithm and changing the order of the letters in the text subtitles depending on the number of "rows".

However, on the few Japanese and Korean DVDs I've seen, I don't remember the subtitles being displayed vertcially in the right side? As far as I remember, the subtitles were displayed "normally", horizontally at the bottom? Are the vertical subtitles a phenomenon from the Japanese/Korean cinemas only?

[mic]

@CoNS

it took me a while, but then figured out (I think) that the characters in the example don't all line up horizontally -- that was my guess anyway.

"the few Japanese and Korean DVDs I've seen, I don't remember the subtitles being displayed vertcially in the right side"

FWIW, I checked with a big Japanese movie fan, and was told the subs are all displayed horizontally, were still readable, & in short when I explained the prob, he replied: "why bother"?

[Liisachan]

I don't know much about DVD subs but vertical subs are possible in SSA. so you might want to try: MaestroSBT (and son2vobsub)

[ghy]

thanks guys. yea, even if i stacked the characters on top of one another, i'd still have a problem when i tried to break them into two "lines," like unmei suggested.

Cons: i tried asking paddington on his SC thread. hopefully he'll be able to help me out

liisachan: i'm not familiar with SSA, so pardon the stupid question, but what's SSA used for?

[Liisachan]

Originally Posted by ghy

liisachan: i'm not familiar with SSA, so pardon the stupid question, but what's SSA used for?

SSA (Sub Station Alpha) is a text-beased sub format. Actually the vertical subs in the picture you quoted was generated using SSA. There are several methods to realize vertical subs using SSA, and there is a method to convert SSA to picture subs for DVD.

You might want to read Japanese subtitles in SSA?. "Advanced SSA" (ASS) is a kind of SSA, but I don't think MaestroSBT will understand it. Still you can use the "first method."
SSA sample codes for vertical subs

[ghy]

liisachan,
that thread was actually my reference point, but i'm still reading up on how to use sub station alpha and how it works into dvd subtitles.

the way i understand it, i'd have to convert the ssa to an sup via srt2sup or SC, but would these vertical settings convert into an srt subtitle format?

[Liisachan]

not srt2sup, but try MaestroSBT

[CoNS]

Originally Posted by ghy

yea, even if i stacked the characters on top of one another, i'd still have a problem when i tried to break them into two "lines," like unmei suggested.

How do you mean?

[unmei]

Originally Posted by CoNS

How do you mean?

it should be

i H
s e
  l
a l
  o
t ,
e
s t
t h
! i
  s

[edit]
Ah, well maybe even more basic problem. You would need 2 independent areas, wich might not be possible with that program.

[CoNS]

Ah, ok, I see now. But still, it could be done automatically by implementing support for this in SubtitleCreator (or similar programs). I don't think it's so hard to do, but it would still take some time to implement...

But, I'm still wondering if it's a big wish among many users? When commercial DVDs seem to have Korean/Japanese subtitles displayed horizontally?

[Sylf]

I doubt it.

For most movies, the width is greather than height. (Personally, I've never seen a movie that's shot in "Portrait" mode.) So, if you place the sub vertically on 1 side of the screen, you are forcing the viewer to concentrate their focus on 1 edge, keeping their eyes away from the other far side. The effect is less obvious if the subtitle is placed either on top of bottom of the screen, because the sub is still placed closer to the center of the screen overall. So that's one way to think about it.

And as far as I know, in Japan, the subtitles used to be made manually - hand written layer overlaid on top of the original film. If that's the case, the subtitle makers could place the subs anywhere they wanted. But most of the subs I've seen are still placed at the bottom. It's a good indication that it's a tried and true place for the subs to be. (Or... I could be wrong. I've been out of Japan for so long...)

I just don't see very high demand for vertical subs.

[ghy]

i dunno for japan, but korea most definitely still places subtitles on the right hand side vertically. they initially did so because theaters didn't have stadium seating, and people at the back wouldn't be able to read subtitles at the bottom. the seating has changed, but the subtitling has yet to catch up to this 'development.'

there's no need to do this on DVDs since they're for home viewing, but i have a few DVDs with permanent english subtitles at the bottom, and i don't want the korean subtitles to overlap with the english ones.

either way, if anyone was wondering (and willing to shell out the money, although you get a free month to try it out), adobe encore dvd has a vertical subtitling feature.

[unmei]

Ah, ok, I see now. But still, it could be done automatically by implementing support for this

Yes, of course ..with programming involved
If it were for direct show or avisynth, you could use PixiShow/PicSubU - it has a style property "read-direction" which exactly does this when set to "Asian":