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Old 13th May 2015, 03:17   #29821  |  Link
agustin9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
Maybe you guys already know about this utility, but its what I have used in windows 7 / 8 to stop my PC setting my TV to 59.9X mode.

http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Th...on-Utility-CRU

It lets you set what resolutions your display is allowed to use. Once setup correctly, you can make your display only be allowed use 60hz for example by removing the other ones you don't want to allow. This worked for me with a bit of fiddling.
It's a good workaround, thanks!
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Old 13th May 2015, 03:35   #29822  |  Link
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After some tests, here is what I've noticed with 2-3 minutes from the same movie.
From best config to worst

madVR x86, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed), No D3D11 (D3D9): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x64, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed), No D3D11 (D3D9): 2 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x86, Fullscreen exclusive, No D3D11 (D3D9): 5 frames dropped/glitches

After, all configs have problems, did not really count, but D3D11 adds dropped frames/glitches, not as much as FullScreen Exclusive+64 bits though.
And so the worst config is:
madVR 64 bits, Fullscreen exclusive, D3D11: 50 frames dropped/glitches

Some comparison with madVR 0.87.21:
madVR x86, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x64, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x86, Fullscreen exclusive: 1 frame dropped/glitche
madVR x64, Fullscreen exclusive: 10 frames dropped/glitches

Sorry I read you wanted feedback on debanding for now, but I had some time to do tests, and I'm not interested at all by upscaling/debanding/dithering, I'm not strong enough to notice image quality.

Last edited by pirlouy; 13th May 2015 at 03:50.
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Old 13th May 2015, 03:39   #29823  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
If I only have 1080p24 (or 1080p23 for that matter) in the setting box, every video that goes to fullscreen will turn the TV to 1080p24 mode regardless of source fps. You say this shouldn't happen right? I use madVR v0.87.21, and a bit older MPC-HC (for a reason) v1.6.9.7418 Lite, not sure this is the culprit.
If you only have one setting madVR will switch to that setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
But I'm willing to bow to the majority. What does everybody else say? Should I "allow" Jinc3 to be used for chroma doubling? Instead of blocking it and using Catmull-Rom instead?
Personally I am happy to have Catmull-Rom AR used for doubling the chroma. I can see some improvements in huhn's example, but that is Jinc3 v.s. NNEDI3 not Catmull-Rom v.s Jinc3. For this use case maybe a trade quality for performance option that used chroma scaling, not image scaling, so one could still get NNEDI3 chroma doubling without any extra settings? Is Jinc3 enough of an improvement over Catmull-Rom AR with that source to want the trade quality for performance option?

I take this phrasing to mean that chroma is doubled to match luma, the video is converted back to RGB, and then downscaled with image downscaling (assuming a <2 scaling factor)? Sorry if I am reading too much into your choice of words.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:14   #29824  |  Link
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don't forget my source was lossless RGB a normal 4:2:0 like 99 % of all videos needs to use nnedi3 on chroma first and that means the chroma doubling will lose even more of it's power.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:18   #29825  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If you only have one setting madVR will switch to that setting.



Personally I am happy to have Catmull-Rom AR used for doubling the chroma. I can see some improvements in huhn's example, but that is Jinc3 v.s. NNEDI3 not Catmull-Rom v.s Jinc3. For this use case maybe a trade quality for performance option that used chroma scaling, not image scaling, so one could still get NNEDI3 chroma doubling without any extra settings? Is Jinc3 enough of an improvement over Catmull-Rom AR with that source to want the trade quality for performance option?

I take this phrasing to mean that chroma is doubled to match luma, the video is converted back to RGB, and then downscaled with image downscaling (assuming a <2 scaling factor)? Sorry if I am reading too much into your choice of words.
The improvement in that image comparison is very minimal.

A trade quality for performance checkbox that forces Catmull-Rom chroma scaling would make sense. NNEDI3 is meant to be the best of the best scaling algorithm. If the opposite logic was used, place a checkbox next to Image Doubling that allows for Jinc3 chroma scaling. Either way, it is only one checkbox.

Last edited by Warner306; 13th May 2015 at 05:25.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:25   #29826  |  Link
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I don't find image doubling too complex or confusing in its current iteration. It is Image Enhancements and Upscaling Refinement that require simplification.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:25   #29827  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

You won't get highest quality by using the most expensive algorithm for every part of the processing pipeline. You will get highest quality by spending your GPU for algorithms which make a difference. Instead of worrying about chroma doubling, have a look at FineSharp and SuperRes.

But I'm willing to bow to the majority. What does everybody else say? Should I "allow" Jinc3 to be used for chroma doubling? Instead of blocking it and using Catmull-Rom instead?
One other option you could consider regarding Chroma is possibly instituting a SuperChromaRes option (similar to what MPDN has done) like you have done with SuperRes. It might be a less resource draining option than chroma doubling.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:36   #29828  |  Link
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Where does NEDI image doubling fall in terms of quality? As good as NNEDI3? Better than Jinc? It's certainly fast

Last edited by JarrettH; 13th May 2015 at 06:04.
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:50   #29829  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks for the feedback, guys. But I do want to clear up debanding first, before moving to the other new options. FWIW, Shiandow is still working on maybe improving his debanding algorithm further. So let's give him a couple of days, and then retest, and then decide whether we keep his algorithm in madVR or not. And no, it will not stay as an option. It will either replace the current "high" preset, or it will go.
Shiandow made the following post in the MPDN thread, so he may have something new for madVR to integrate soon:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...56#post1721756

Settings on the new debanding uses settings of threshold: 0.2 and detail level: 1
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Old 13th May 2015, 05:56   #29830  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
don't forget my source was lossless RGB a normal 4:2:0 like 99 % of all videos needs to use nnedi3 on chroma first and that means the chroma doubling will lose even more of it's power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The improvement in that image comparison is very minimal.

A trade quality for performance checkbox that forces Catmull-Rom chroma scaling would make sense. NNEDI3 is meant to be the best of the best scaling algorithm. If the opposite logic was used, place a checkbox next to Image Doubling that allows for Jinc3 chroma scaling. Either way, it is only one checkbox.
Oh I fully agree, this isn't a use case I personally think needs supporting and I like madshi's current method. Catmull-Rom AR is great, no need for anything else.

But if users did want the slightly improved quality for similar rare sources madshi would need to allow NNEDI3 or similar, Jinc3 isn't what gave the minor improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I don't find image doubling too complex or confusing in its current iteration. It is Image Enhancements and Upscaling Refinement that require simplification.
I agree and based on my limited early testing I would be happy to have all the sub options in both of those pages removed and simply have check boxes for FineSharp, LumaSharpen, and SuperRes (with its 3 presets). The defaults work pretty well for me and I have not found other settings I would rather use. However, I haven't tested a wide variety of sources yet and I am sure others like tuning for particular videos.

I think it is our job to play with all those options and a wide variety of sources to come up with some simple presets. Maybe we could agree on decent values for "low", "medium", and "high" presets or similar?
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Old 13th May 2015, 07:40   #29831  |  Link
cca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've done some digging and hacking and raping Direct3D, I think I have the refresh rate problems sorted out. Give this build a try:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix.zip

Should work for D3D9 and D3D11 now, and also for 64bit. Once again, I've spent a lot of time to fix Microsoft's stupidity. They actually *intentionally* use 59.940Hz (23.976Hz) even if you ask for 60.000Hz (24.000Hz). There's no way to convince Direct3D to use 60.000 (24.000), except by going behind their back and twisting and binding their fingers, like I've done. I wonder if there's any other software besides madVR which can switch FSE mode to 24.000/60.000? I kinda doubt it...
Doesn't work here either, it always switches to 59.92 or 23.97 respectively instead of 60 or 24Hz. My current workaround is to run the desktop in 59 or 23Hz for now.
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Old 13th May 2015, 09:09   #29832  |  Link
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image quadrupling with SuperRes still not fix
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Old 13th May 2015, 09:21   #29833  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've done some digging and hacking and raping Direct3D, I think I have the refresh rate problems sorted out. Give this build a try:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix.zip

Should work for D3D9 and D3D11 now, and also for 64bit. Once again, I've spent a lot of time to fix Microsoft's stupidity. They actually *intentionally* use 59.940Hz (23.976Hz) even if you ask for 60.000Hz (24.000Hz). There's no way to convince Direct3D to use 60.000 (24.000), except by going behind their back and twisting and binding their fingers, like I've done. I wonder if there's any other software besides madVR which can switch FSE mode to 24.000/60.000? I kinda doubt it...
This build work for me in D3D9/32bit scenario only. Unfortunately, it does not work in other scenarios (D3D11/32bit, D3D9/64bit, D3D11/64bit)
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Old 13th May 2015, 10:56   #29834  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
- Rendering times are about 20-22ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (BOTH LUMA AND CHROMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (ONLY LUMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.
- I do not get the same results with build 88.5. Please see below.

A) With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
Original Settings
- Rendering times are about 20-22ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (BOTH LUMA AND CHROMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.

B) With build 87.21 (new 88.5 features not available in this build, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
Chroma Doubling + Quadrupling disabled
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image (ONLY LUMA) Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frames are dropped.

C) With build 88.5 (ALL new features turned off, Image Upscaling is set to Lanczos 3 tap, and FSE to disabled):
- Rendering times are about 18-20ms when I set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 32 neurons, and Image Doubling + Quadrupling to NNEDI3 32 neurons. No frame drop this time!

I even went back and set Image Upscaling to Jinc 3 tapm, enabled the Shiandow's Deband Algorithm, and enabled SuperRes filter for Chroma Upscaling and it produced no frame drops! Quadrupling issue is SOLVED with 88.5! . Using SuperRes fot Image Refinment in addition to settings above resulted in frame drops, but as you said - those settings are only for testing.
Ok, good to hear. Is this with Jinc3 AR selected for image upscaling?

BTW, there's one difference between v0.87.x and v0.88.x that I forgot to mention: The setting for image quadrupling is now also applied for "octadrupling" and "hexadrupling". Meaning, NNEDI3 doubling is used as long as upscaling is needed. v0.87.x used NNEDI3 max twice, v0.88.x doesn't have this limit. Is it possible that NNEDI3 is used with v0.88.x on your PC more than twice? You can see that in the debug OSD (Ctrl+J). E.g.:

> Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Jinc3 AR (NNEDI3 was used twice)
> Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Jinc3 AR (NNEDI3 was used thrice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
Will you be adding 60 frames to render ahead for Windowed and Fullscreen now that D3D11 can sync to the VSYNC rate? Or am I misunderstanding the whole D3D11 mode that was recently added?

I've found setting Windowed and Fullscreen to 16 and GPU que to 16 with CPU que at 20 provides very low ms (10-20 ms) playback.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking/saying. What is a "low ms playback"? You mean low rendering times?

Direct3D maxes out at 16 frames presented in advance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agustin9 View Post
With this build it switches to 59.93, and leave the screen in that refresh rate even after I go back to windowed. Previously when going back to windowed it switched to 59.99. Windows 8.1 here
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
No. As i said earlier, I already had this problem with 0.87.21 (no D3D11 if I understood correctly).
I noticed the problem with x64 build since the 64 build switches to 59Hz.
I never noticed the problem with x86 builds before because in fact the x86 build auto switches to 60Hz and I was already in 60Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
refreshratefix doesn't fix the issue and yes the issue is there with normal FSE mode too.

only 32 bit FSE works fine interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cca View Post
Doesn't work here either, it always switches to 59.92 or 23.97 respectively instead of 60 or 24Hz. My current workaround is to run the desktop in 59 or 23Hz for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvrkuth View Post
This build work for me in D3D9/32bit scenario only. Unfortunately, it does not work in other scenarios (D3D11/32bit, D3D9/64bit, D3D11/64bit)
Stupid me. I forgot that the refresh rate fix also needs new madHcNetXx.dlls. You'll find them here:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix2.zip

These files together with the modified madVR(64).ax should make the refresh rate work again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
ok quadrupling is not that huge sorry but placebo? not sure.chroma doubling is quiet something!

chroma upscale
jinc3AR: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3jinc3arx2syl.png
nnedix2: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax2posri.png
nnedix4: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax424swl.png

and with some more jinc3ar scaling on top:
jinc3AR: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3jinc3arg2sj3.png
nnedix2: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax2rtsql.png
nnedix4: http://abload.de/img/nnedi3chromax4z7ssj.png

i wouldn't be shock if scaling to UHD would show some more potential for quadrupling on this source. but this source is just ...
Thanks! Could you add one screenshot with Catmull-Rom AR instead of Jinc3AR? That was the original question: Whether Catmull-Rom AR looked worse than Jinc3AR for chroma doubling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
After some tests, here is what I've noticed with 2-3 minutes from the same movie.
From best config to worst

madVR x86, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed), No D3D11 (D3D9): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x64, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed), No D3D11 (D3D9): 2 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x86, Fullscreen exclusive, No D3D11 (D3D9): 5 frames dropped/glitches

After, all configs have problems, did not really count, but D3D11 adds dropped frames/glitches, not as much as FullScreen Exclusive+64 bits though.
And so the worst config is:
madVR 64 bits, Fullscreen exclusive, D3D11: 50 frames dropped/glitches

Some comparison with madVR 0.87.21:
madVR x86, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x64, No Fullscreen exclusive (windowed): 0 frames dropped/glitches
madVR x86, Fullscreen exclusive: 1 frame dropped/glitche
madVR x64, Fullscreen exclusive: 10 frames dropped/glitches
Do these frame drops occur just when switching modes or seeking or something? Or do these drops increase during playback? If so, when those frame drops during playback occur, are the queues full or empty? Obviously, if the refresh rate fix fails to work, and your movie frame rate is really 60fps, then there *MUST* be framedrops in FSE mode, in order to keep audio and video in sync. This problem should go away once the refresh rate is correctly set to 60.000Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Where does NEDI image doubling fall in terms of quality? As good as NNEDI3? Better than Jinc? It's certainly fast
It's too early to talk about that. Feedback is concentrated around debanding for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edcrfv94 View Post
image quadrupling with SuperRes still not fix
NVidia, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by detmek View Post
No problem. Like I said, I wanted to try Windows 10. I guess I should tried fresh install as Win 8.1 > Win 10 didn't work for me.

Anyway, I created 2 clips, one with Bandicam and one with my compact digicam.
Euwh, that's ugly! I can see that presentation glitches are increasing like crazy. But this problem only occurs for a few seconds after each windowed <-> FSE switch and afterwards the problem is gone and playback is smooth, without any presentation glitches etc?

Are you using madVR default settings? No custom flush settings, right?
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Old 13th May 2015, 11:24   #29835  |  Link
edcrfv94
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, good to hear. Is this with Jinc3 AR selected for image upscaling?

BTW, there's one difference between v0.87.x and v0.88.x that I forgot to mention: The setting for image quadrupling is now also applied for "octadrupling" and "hexadrupling". Meaning, NNEDI3 doubling is used as long as upscaling is needed. v0.87.x used NNEDI3 max twice, v0.88.x doesn't have this limit. Is it possible that NNEDI3 is used with v0.88.x on your PC more than twice? You can see that in the debug OSD (Ctrl+J). E.g.:

> Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Jinc3 AR (NNEDI3 was used twice)
> Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Nnedi32 > Jinc3 AR (NNEDI3 was used thrice)


I'm not sure I understand what you're asking/saying. What is a "low ms playback"? You mean low rendering times?

Direct3D maxes out at 16 frames presented in advance.






Stupid me. I forgot that the refresh rate fix also needs new madHcNetXx.dlls. You'll find them here:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix2.zip

These files together with the modified madVR(64).ax should make the refresh rate work again.


Thanks! Could you add one screenshot with Catmull-Rom AR instead of Jinc3AR? That was the original question: Whether Catmull-Rom AR looked worse than Jinc3AR for chroma doubling.


Do these frame drops occur just when switching modes or seeking or something? Or do these drops increase during playback? If so, when those frame drops during playback occur, are the queues full or empty? Obviously, if the refresh rate fix fails to work, and your movie frame rate is really 60fps, then there *MUST* be framedrops in FSE mode, in order to keep audio and video in sync. This problem should go away once the refresh rate is correctly set to 60.000Hz.


It's too early to talk about that. Feedback is concentrated around debanding for now.


NVidia, right?


Euwh, that's ugly! I can see that presentation glitches are increasing like crazy. But this problem only occurs for a few seconds after each windowed <-> FSE switch and afterwards the problem is gone and playback is smooth, without any presentation glitches etc?

Are you using madVR default settings? No custom flush settings, right?
right ,NVidia GTX670 344.75
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Old 13th May 2015, 11:47   #29836  |  Link
Dogway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If you only have one setting madVR will switch to that setting.
That's not what madshi said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR should only switch to 1080p24 for 24fps sources, anyway. So what else do you want?
I have a 60fps video and I don't want madvr to do anything if source framerate is not 24p.
edit: And to answer before you ask, no, I don't want to add 1080p60 since that switches to 60p screen mode, and I want to play the file at "1080 @ 60Hz" screen mode (aka in PC mode).

Last edited by Dogway; 13th May 2015 at 11:52.
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Old 13th May 2015, 11:47   #29837  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Euwh, that's ugly! I can see that presentation glitches are increasing like crazy. But this problem only occurs for a few seconds after each windowed <-> FSE switch and afterwards the problem is gone and playback is smooth, without any presentation glitches etc?

Are you using madVR default settings? No custom flush settings, right?
No custom flush settings. I tried with defaults, disabling FSE, changing queues, scaling algorithms... Problem remains. Its worse if I activate Smooth Motion and disable FSE and its a bit worse on Windows 7. Then it stutters the all the time in full screen windowed mode. In FSE it stops after few seconds because presentation queue goes full after few seconds.

Another thing, presetation gliches do not rise always. Sometimes those do not change even if video stutters with out of order frames.
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Old 13th May 2015, 12:00   #29838  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I forgot that the refresh rate fix also needs new madHcNetXx.dlls. You'll find them here:

http://madshi.net/madVR885refreshRateFix2.zip

These files together with the modified madVR(64).ax should make the refresh rate work again.
Yes, madvr display modes work correctly now. Thanks!
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Old 13th May 2015, 13:06   #29839  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks! Could you add one screenshot with Catmull-Rom AR instead of Jinc3AR? That was the original question: Whether Catmull-Rom AR looked worse than Jinc3AR for chroma doubling.
added in the post
i would say catmull-rom is better for this source.
but this isn't a perfect x4 upsacale so it is used for image scaling too. simply not a perfect comparison.

edit: madVR885refreshRateFix2.zip works fine

Last edited by huhn; 13th May 2015 at 13:12.
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Old 13th May 2015, 13:41   #29840  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Stupid me. I forgot that the refresh rate fix also needs new madHcNetXx.dlls. [...]
These files together with the modified madVR(64).ax should make the refresh rate work again.
Confirmed ! It really works !


Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Do these frame drops occur just when switching modes or seeking or something? Or do these drops increase during playback?
It is during playback. Each time I enter Fullscreen, I wait 2-3 seconds then press Ctrl+R to reset stats.
Quote:
If so, when those frame drops during playback occur, are the queues full or empty?
They are full. Then 1 frame dropped, and they are full just after.
Quote:
Obviously, if the refresh rate fix fails to work, and your movie frame rate is really 60fps, then there *MUST* be framedrops in FSE mode, in order to keep audio and video in sync. This problem should go away once the refresh rate is correctly set to 60.000Hz.
I was testing on a monitor which does not have 59Hz, only 60 (even if it's 59,88 in reality). The video was 25Hz interlaced, with smooth motion. So indeed, 50 does not match 60, but with smooth motion, it should be ok. And I managed to have 0 dropped frame/glitche during these 2-3 minutes.
If I take a classic 23,976 Hz video, I have the same dropped frames/glitches ratio.

Last edited by pirlouy; 13th May 2015 at 13:43.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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