Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th May 2015, 21:07   #29901  |  Link
Dogway
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Remember the chroma is half the resolution of the luma so you need to upscale it before doubling somehow
I might be missing something but, can't you double chroma with nnedi3, then up to 4:4:4 target display resolution with the chroma upscaling kernel? Why do you need to do a mini-upscale first?
Dogway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 21:09   #29902  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
I think I understand what you mean, first line is converting to 4:4:4, then it upscales the whole thing with nnedi (hence image >, and not luma >), but in my opinion it shouldn't be doing that... it's not a good idea to use a a scaler before nnedi because you are amplifying artifacts, also you are adding one more step to chroma.

chroma > mitchell > nnedi (double) > resizer (for up or downscale to 1080)

has the behavior changed in last version?

edit: btw I don't think what you say is right, I disabled chroma nnedi and I get the same OSD output.
make new screen with disabled nnedi3 chroma doubling. there should be a new chroma line.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 21:15   #29903  |  Link
ibius
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibius View Post
Issues with D3D11:
1. Going FSE is fine, but after first seek presentation glitches start piling up by the dozen every second during playback, enabling 'Present a frame for every v-sync' fixes it, but windowed FS mode works fine without. All queues apart from render queue (see below) are full at the time.
2. After going windowed FS or FSE, render queue is always only 3-5/8, other queues are full, and I get increased CPU usage, e.g. from ~7% to ~30% on my 3,6GHz Intel Core2Duo.
3. Sometimes after seeking/stopping playback video gets stuck in a loop, jumping between few frames.
4. Render times are better compared to D3D9, but present times are way worse, e.g. going from 0.12ms to 0.9x/1.xx ms in windowed mode, in windowed FS or FSE they are even higher (although only chroma is scaled).
I did more tests and figured out that disabling smooth motion fixes first issue.
Fun fact, without 'Present a frame for every v-sync' enabled, FSE starts piling up presentation glitches right after going into FSE, with smooth motion all was well until I tried to seek.
ibius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 21:19   #29904  |  Link
Dogway
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
make new screen with disabled nnedi3 chroma doubling. there should be a new chroma line.
yep, now chroma uses another scaler (third line), problem is it uses lanczos which I only set for luma upscaling... instead of mitchell
Dogway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 21:34   #29905  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
yep, now chroma uses another scaler (third line), problem is it uses lanczos which I only set for luma upscaling... instead of mitchell
working as intended. the image upscaler was used in that version.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 21:48   #29906  |  Link
XMonarchY
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
madshi
Ok, good to hear. Is this with Jinc3 AR selected for image upscaling?

BTW, there's one difference between v0.87.x and v0.88.x that I forgot to mention: The setting for image quadrupling is now also applied for "octadrupling" and "hexadrupling". Meaning, NNEDI3 doubling is used as long as upscaling is needed. v0.87.x used NNEDI3 max twice, v0.88.x doesn't have this limit. Is it possible that NNEDI3 is used with v0.88.x on your PC more than twice? You can see that in the debug OS.
Yes, with Jinc 3 tap AR for Image Upscaling.

In OSD I just see this..:
Chroma>NNEDI32
Luma X>NNEDI32<Catmull-ROM AR
Chroma X> Catmull-ROM AR

I can even set Chroma Upscaling to NNEDI3 128 neurons and keep both Doubling and Quadrupling @ NNEDI3 32 neurons without any frame drops.

I have 2 separate questions:
- Is it worth disabling desktop composition?
- What is a good Shiandow's Deband setting for low/medium-low quality content? I know the original debanding settings for such content should be at least medium for strength and high for fade in/out
- I assume both algorithms can be used together (the original and Shiandow's?)

ALSO, 3DLUT organization is plain buggy. I have content specifically labeled SMPTE C In Ctrl+J menu is says SMPTE C), but if I place Rec.709 3DLUT into madVR Rec.709 line and place Rec.601 3DLUT into Rec.601 line, then madVR will actually use Rec.709 line and Rec.709 3DLUT to render content specifically labeled SMPTE C. The only way to use 3DLUT's accurately is to place all/any 3DLUT's into Rec.709 line in madVR, regardless of whether those 3DLUT's are Rec.601 or Rec.709. madVR will use Rec.709 line (and whichever 3DLUT in it) to render ANY content, regardless of whether that content is labeled Rec.709 or SMPTE C. I used the latest HCFR to test Rec.601 3DLUT in Rec.709 line and it came out just right - very accurate Rec.601 results. Someone stated that Rec.601 3DLUT in Rec.709 line in madVR would produce inaccurate/wrong results, but my HCFR testing proved otherwise. Its like madVR actually alters the 3DLUT in any way. It can only decide which 3DLUT to use, but that feature does not work.

Last edited by XMonarchY; 13th May 2015 at 22:28.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 23:01   #29907  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
I might be missing something but, can't you double chroma with nnedi3, then up to 4:4:4 target display resolution with the chroma upscaling kernel? Why do you need to do a mini-upscale first?
Isn't that the same thing?

1920x1080p 4:2:0 source.

step 1) 960x540 chroma to 1920x1080 using 'chroma upscaling'. This is the only step 'chroma upscaling' is used for. This converts the 4:2:0 to 4:4:4.
step 2) 1920x1080 chroma to 3840x2160 with NNEDI3 (chroma doubling) or, if not doubled, to the target resolution with 'image upscaling'.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th May 2015, 23:52   #29908  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
I could list the modes which are in the edit fields for display mode switching
Yes, this would be great.
Well, to be honest, I don't think this is a good time to add this feature. The whole refresh rate changing will be rewritten sooner or later and work quite differently to how to works now. It makes more sense to wait until then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivan View Post
Btw, can we get dithering for every frame presented? With Dx11 path and "present every vsync" option that should beat any FRC.
For high quality junkies I would strongly recommend to match refresh rate to movie frame rate. If you do that, you already get a changing dithering for each frame right now. Of course it would be possible to change the dither pattern for repeated frames, too, if the refresh rate is higher than the movie framerate. But it would increase GPU power consumption, and to be honest, I have a *lot* of things to do which hopefully bring a bigger image quality improvement than that would bring. Just my 2cents, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
I guess it's a known issue with Madvr 88.4 and 88.5 because I have an issue watching any movie with some random presention error and Renderer queue and all others are not full.
I'm not sure what you mean. There are known issues with 88.4 and 88.5, but not those you're describing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
What is the differences between Font Renderer : Vector Text Renderer and Bitmap Text Renderer ?
I have no idea. madVR doesn't have any such options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibius View Post
1. Going FSE is fine, but after first seek presentation glitches start piling up by the dozen every second during playback, enabling 'Present a frame for every v-sync' fixes it, but windowed FS mode works fine without. All queues apart from render queue (see below) are full at the time.
You will have to use "present a frame for every v-sync" then. Driver bug or D3D11 bug, not my fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibius View Post
2. After going windowed FS or FSE, render queue is always only 3-5/8, other queues are full, and I get increased CPU usage, e.g. from ~7% to ~30% on my 3,6GHz Intel Core2Duo.
This is exactly the effect you would get with "Nvidia control panel 'Max. pre-rendered frames'" set to a fixed low value. So my best guess is that either the GPU uses a different setting for this behind your back, or there are profiles active somehow which set a low value for this, or there's some GPU driver bug, or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibius View Post
3. Sometimes after seeking/stopping playback video gets stuck in a loop, jumping between few frames.
Doesn't occur on my PC. Please try again with the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibius View Post
4. Render times are better compared to D3D9, but present times are way worse, e.g. going from 0.12ms to 0.9x/1.xx ms in windowed mode, in windowed FS or FSE they are even higher (although only chroma is scaled).
Again this points to "Max. pre-rendered frames" not being set correctly. Or the GPU ignoring that settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobindac View Post
I noticed that ordered dithering is a very noisy process. I found it fun lately to turn on 1bit output and see very obviously some algorithmic patterns. It appears not dithering at all gives the most "stable" unnoisy picture while error diffusion is more stable and 'random' is a total mess.

I'm surprised, but it appears no dithering at all is a viable choice.
"No dithering" is not a viable choice *at all*. Testing with 1bit is not a good test for this. Try 2bit. See here:

http://madshi.net/2bitNoDithering.png
http://madshi.net/2bitOrderedDithering.png

(CAUTION: Please zoom the images in the browser to 100%, otherwise the dither pattern will look ugly.)

I think no sane human could possibly prefer the image with no dithering there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
You will *always* need dithering, because its about the mathematical process, not about the quality of the source. In fact, its entirely independent of that (although its going to be more obvious in some sources than in others, of course)
If such a perfect source would exist, then dithering also wouldn't add noise, since dithering, by definition and design, is only used to spread the rounding error to multiple pixels, instead of accumulating it all in one. If there wouldn't be a rounding error, there would be no "noise".

At the end of the day, movies are all going to be in YUV, and YUV needs to be converted to RGB. This conversion process (if done right) results in floating point values, which need to be converted to 8-bit (or recently, 10-bit) on output. If you don't use dithering, you will effectively cut off data. Thats also were your analogy goes wrong, dithering isn't about hiding flaws, its about preserving data when converting to a lower bitdepth (ie. from 16/32-bit float, to 8/10-bit integer for output)

Of course you are free to use whatever settings you like, but please don't spread them as advice.
QFT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
I'm a bit confused when you ask "what mode my PC is", where should I look that? Control panel just said (roughly) 1080 native, 60Hz.

Anyways I had a look and I don't find any video that turns my TV to 1080p60 mode, it stays always in PC mode which is fine and bad at the same time... I would expect a bit more consistency for these things (I should be able to treat 60fps sources as every other non-PC source, TV settings wise). 1080p59 is also defaulting to PC mode.

Then I played a 50fps video and screen turned to 50p mode, so here the story does apply.
Anyways I removed the 1080p50 entry and it defaulted to 1080p60 now seemingly and oddly enough "PC mode" (I still think passthrough should be a better idea?).
Sounds all good to me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvrkuth View Post
My playback is fine (no dropped frames, no glitches).

Anyway, just for info .. when I watch movie 24.000 and refresh rate fix is active, render queue and present queue are low (render queue 3-5/8 and present queue 2-3/8. Average stats present 31.00 ms which is abnormally high, usually 0.05 ms.)
Sounds like you have "Nvidia control panel 'Max. pre-rendered frames'" set to a fixed low value. Set it to "application control".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Your fix never worked for me even before but this time it works! Thanks, great work.
Cool! I did improve it a bit, hoped it might work better in some exotic cases now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
ALSO, 3DLUT organization is plain buggy. I have content specifically labeled SMPTE C In Ctrl+J menu is says SMPTE C), but if I place Rec.709 3DLUT into madVR Rec.709 line and place Rec.601 3DLUT into Rec.601 line, then madVR will actually use Rec.709 line and Rec.709 3DLUT to render content specifically labeled SMPTE C.
How do you know it uses the BT.709 3dlut? If that is really the case, it's a bug and then please enter it to the madVR bug tracker.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 00:00   #29909  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
madVR v0.88.6 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: D3D11 rendering sometimes got stuck (e.g. when minimizing player)
* fixed: NNEDI3 quadrupling with SuperRes didn't work properly (NVidia only)
* fixed: refresh rate fix didn't work in 64bit
* added D3D11 refresh rate fix (proper support for 23p vs. 24p etc)
* added option "octuple luma/chroma resolution"
* re-added NNEDI3 chroma doubling options
* removed limitation to double chroma with Catmull-Rom
* updated Shiandow deband algorithm to latest version
* double clicking tray icon now opens the settings dialog
Please note that image/luma octupling is only applied if you use any of the "upscaling refinement" options. Otherwise this option will be ignored because without "upscaling refinement" the image becomes so soft after quadrupling that there's no use using expensive octupling at that point. Octupling can be useful for upscaling DVDs to 4K (640 > 1280 > 2560 > 5120 < 3840).

Shiandow's deband algorithm was updated to the latest version. Could everyone please re-test? Please note that the defaults have changed, but the settings dialog will remember your previous values. So please manually change the values to threshold 0.2 and detail level 1, and start testing with those values. Your vote counts in deciding whether I'll keep using the "old" debanding algorithms or whether I'll replace some or all of the old algos with the new one. If you're not sure which one you like better, please say just that, instead of randomly picking one. If you do like one clearly better than the other, please let me know - thanks!!

Edit: Shiandow has released yet another fine tuned version of his Deband algorithm. Please copy the code from the following post into the file "madVR\legal stuff\Shiandow\Deband.hlsl", then madVR will immediately use the new Deband version:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...49#post1721949

Last edited by madshi; 14th May 2015 at 07:16.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 00:54   #29910  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,812
Thanks a lot for these changes and fixes.

Could it be that Shiandow's deband doesn't work as intended with this version? I can't see any positive effect.
As a reminder, madVR's and Shiandow's old deband filters:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=29510

Shiandow new (new default values):


Threshold changed to 2.0:


Changing detail levels doesn't change much.

I also quickly benchmarked performance impact of Jinc3 chroma scaling over C-R (both AR) when doing NNEDI3 64 luma quadrupling.
GPU usage was pretty much totally identical (and clocks too):

Last edited by aufkrawall; 14th May 2015 at 02:11.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 01:26   #29911  |  Link
Shiandow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Thanks a lot for these changes and fixes.

Could it be that Shiandow's deband doesn't work as intended with this version? I can't see any positive effect.
As a reminder, madVR's and Shiadow's old deband filters:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=29510

[...]
Hmm, that's not quite what's supposed to happen. For now could you try placing a file called "Deband.hlsl" in the MadVr/legal stuff/Shiandow folder, with the code below? Since madshi has been so kind to conform to the LGPL requirements this should replace the internal shader. In the code below I've removed one of the steps in the algorithm that may have been causing those problems.

Code:
// This file is a part of MPDN Extensions.
// https://github.com/zachsaw/MPDN_Extensions
//
// This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
// modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
// License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
// version 3.0 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
// 
// This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
// but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
// MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU
// Lesser General Public License for more details.
// 
// You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public
// License along with this library.
// 
sampler s0 : register(s0);
sampler s2 : register(s2);
float4 infoConsts1 : register(c0);
float4 infoConsts2 : register(c1);
#define size1 (infoConsts1)
#define ppx (infoConsts1[2])
#define ppy (infoConsts1[3])
#define acuity (infoConsts2[0])
#define threshold (infoConsts2[1])
#define sqr(x) dot(x,x)
#define norm(x) (rsqrt(rsqrt(sqr(sqr(x)))))
#define Get(x,y) (tex2D(s2,float2(ppx,ppy)*(pos + 0.5 + float2(x,y))).xyz)
static const float3x3 YUVtoRGB_709 =
{1.0,  0.0000000000000000,  1.5748000000000000,
 1.0, -0.1873242729306488, -0.4681242729306488,
 1.0,  1.8556000000000000,  0.0000000000000000};

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR0
{
  float4 c0 = tex2D(s0, tex);
  float2 pos = tex * size1.xy - 0.5;
  float2 offset = frac(pos);
  pos -= offset;
  float4x3 X = {Get(0,0), Get(1,0), Get(0,1), Get(1,1)};
  float3x4 LinFit = {{-2, 2, -2, 2}, {-2, -2, 2, 2}, {1, 1, 1, 1}};
  float4 w = 0.25*mul(float1x3(offset-0.5,1), LinFit);
  float3 avg = mul(float1x4(w), X) / dot(w, 1);
  float3 diff = avg - c0;
  diff -= clamp(diff, -0.5 / acuity, 0.5 / acuity);
  float str = smoothstep(0, threshold, length(diff*acuity));
  c0.xyz = lerp(avg, c0, str);
  c0.rgb = mul(YUVtoRGB_709, c0.xyz - float3(0.0, 0.5, 0.5));
  return c0;
}

Last edited by Shiandow; 14th May 2015 at 02:37.
Shiandow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 01:46   #29912  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,812
Yes, issue is gone. But the result is probably not better than with the previous madVR versions?
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 01:58   #29913  |  Link
Shiandow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Yes, issue is gone. But the result is probably not better than with the previous madVR versions?
Is that a question or are you not seeing any improvement? In theory it should still be better than the previous one.
Shiandow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 02:02   #29914  |  Link
x7007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
Thanks for the fixes, will check it at home, works fine for now
x7007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 02:11   #29915  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
Is that a question or are you not seeing any improvement? In theory it should still be better than the previous one.
It was an assumption, based on a quick look.
I will do a direct comparison with the same parameters like with the previous version once I'm done with sleeping.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 02:37   #29916  |  Link
Shiandow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
It was an assumption, based on a quick look.
I will do a direct comparison with the same parameters like with the previous version once I'm done with sleeping.
Well, when you're back, I made some additional changes to improve the interpolation somewhat. So please update the code of Deband.hlsl with the edited code from my previous comment before you do any testing.

Although, maybe madshi could replace the internal shaders before then? Just don't forget to remove "Deband.hlsl" if you update MadVR.

By the way, well done finding that sample. For some reason I didn't encounter such problems in the other files I tested.
Shiandow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 02:59   #29917  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
Oh my, thanks for the daily updates and killer features

If I check and then uncheck "octuple luma/chroma resolution", I can't uncheck "double chroma resolution" and "quad chroma resolution" anymore, bug?

This said, 8X is complete overkill for 1080p, I still would like to try it coz there used to be a feature in Avisynth where you would massively upscale, process and then downscale at the very last stage. NEDI is so GPU efficient than why not giving it a shot on 360*288@1080p+NEDI/SuperRes

I guess 8X luma only isn't possible due to the pixel shifts? I'm not too keen on wasting GPU cycles on chroma.

Last edited by leeperry; 14th May 2015 at 03:03.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 05:29   #29918  |  Link
cvrkuth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvrkuth View Post
My playback is fine (no dropped frames, no glitches).

Anyway, just for info .. when I watch movie 24.000 and refresh rate fix is active, render queue and present queue are low (render queue 3-5/8 and present queue 2-3/8. Average stats present 31.00 ms which is abnormally high, usually 0.05 ms.)
When I watch movie 23.976 and refresh rate fix is not active, everything is fine with numbers (render queue 7-8/8 and present queue 6-7/8. Average stats present is 0.05 ms.)

Hope this help,
Regards

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Sounds like you have "Nvidia control panel 'Max. pre-rendered frames'" set to a fixed low value. Set it to "application control".
No, I have ATI card (Sapphire Radeon HD 5670 Ultimate 1GB, Catalyst™ 14.12)
__________________
Intel Core i7-4790 CPU @ 3.60GHz, RAM 32 GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 665MHz (9-9-9-24),
Panasonic TX-P42G20E, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970, Win 10 Pro x64,
PotPlayer 1.7.16291 64-bit, madVR v0.92.17
cvrkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 06:14   #29919  |  Link
x7007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
I still have issue with my 970 windows 7 at home. it still doesn't use the whole render queue when using D3D11 . without D3D11 it is ok. anyone knows why it happens or how to fix it ? with my laptop G751 970m windows 8 it doesn't happen with it enabled.

Should I enable everything on Upscaling refinement ?

FineSharp
LumaSharpen
SuperRes - Error upscaling quality - high
Refine the image after every ~2x upscaling step

Last edited by x7007; 14th May 2015 at 06:23.
x7007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2015, 08:37   #29920  |  Link
James Freeman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
I still have issue with my 970 windows 7 at home. it still doesn't use the whole render queue when using D3D11 . without D3D11 it is ok. anyone knows why it happens or how to fix it ? with my laptop G751 970m windows 8 it doesn't happen with it enabled.
It's a known issue with 0.88.x versions in windows 7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
Should I enable everything on Upscaling refinement ?
I hope you are kidding...

No, you should not.
You should at least have a basic knowledge of what each of these do.
__________________
System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410.

Last edited by James Freeman; 14th May 2015 at 08:40.
James Freeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.