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Old 7th June 2010, 17:14   #3061  |  Link
JarrettH
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The seek bar (timer) has considerable lag...speeds up and slows down, doesn't seem to know where I am in the clip precisely. Wonder if that is related to anything.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=F3DBBK8S

That one I seeked somewhere, used alt+enter to full and alt+enter again to window and closed (no pauses)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V7RYCCJN

I did the same thing here (smaller log file)

It doesn't consistently do this with alt+enter, just seems to have a lot of cases of just ok switching or much worse

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2010 at 17:43.
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Old 7th June 2010, 17:36   #3062  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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madshi, have you considered adding support for RGB32 input? I ask this because the only way of displaying subs in madVR is using ffdshow or VSFilter, and in YV12 they work fine but the borders look like crap because of the chroma downsampling needed. You'd ask why use madVR then, well, because of the very good vsync it has

Couple of things I've noticed:

- madVR doesn't react to real time resolution changes.
- Windowed - fullscreen switching, it's slow and weird looking.
- Pause/resume or seek can completely destroy smoothness, from perfectly smooth before pausing, to something similar to 3:2 pulldown after resuming playback. Another pause/resume/seek fixes it.

Other than that, great work as always.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.

Last edited by STaRGaZeR; 7th June 2010 at 17:38.
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Old 7th June 2010, 18:12   #3063  |  Link
janos666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
madshi, have you considered adding support for RGB32 input? I ask this because the only way of displaying subs in madVR is using ffdshow or VSFilter, and in YV12 they work fine but the borders look like crap because of the chroma downsampling needed. You'd ask why use madVR then, well, because of the very good vsync it has

Couple of things I've noticed:

- madVR doesn't react to real time resolution changes.
- Windowed - fullscreen switching, it's slow and weird looking.
I use FFDShow's subtitle renderer and I don't have any problem with 720p or 1080p sources.
Of course, there could be a problem with low resolution videos on big screens (like 1920x1200 here), but I do not usually watch SD materials anymore. I think RGB32 output won't help in this situation.
I ran into this problem once but text was readable after some tweaking (with Spline64 resize, Lanczos will create ghost images around the fonts). I had to change the Outline and Shadow settings.
My usual settings are 1 and 2 for HD materials, but I set them to 1 and 0 for SD sources (and I use gradient shadows). And I had to use bigger font size for SD than I usually prefer (which is small, my guests always blame about that and they request much bigger fonts...).
And the last thing. I set the subtitle position to the center of the screen. (The other blame factor but I never move it away. I would not like to drag my eyes and randomly miss the movie picture or the subtitle. And a small subtitle won't cover too much of the picture...)
Give it a try.

Why do you want to change resolution on LCD display? They should always work at their native resolution and it won't harm anything if you keep it at 120Hz all the time.
Window-Fullscreen is weird, yes. But nothing to worry about. I would request many other changes/improvements/fixes before these things. (Sorry, I do not want to provoke you, just...)

Last edited by janos666; 7th June 2010 at 18:31.
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Old 7th June 2010, 19:21   #3064  |  Link
Hypernova
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Subtitle is very important to me, but as long as madshi still say "subtitle pin is part of the plan", then I don't think RGB input will be needed much.
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Old 7th June 2010, 20:14   #3065  |  Link
starlight2
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Hello, i5 and use a PC with integrated graphics. I tried to
install madvr with MPC HC but I get the message that
my graphics card does not support non power of two textures
I can not use Madvr? There 's some solution?
Thank you
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Old 7th June 2010, 20:17   #3066  |  Link
namaiki
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starlight2: Are you using the latest MadVR? (v0.17) Also, what is the model of the integrated graphics processor that you have?
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Old 7th June 2010, 20:19   #3067  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I use FFDShow's subtitle renderer and I don't have any problem with 720p or 1080p sources.
Of course, there could be a problem with low resolution videos on big screens (like 1920x1200 here), but I do not usually watch SD materials anymore. I think RGB32 output won't help in this situation.
I ran into this problem once but text was readable after some tweaking (with Spline64 resize, Lanczos will create ghost images around the fonts). I had to change the Outline and Shadow settings.
My usual settings are 1 and 2 for HD materials, but I set them to 1 and 0 for SD sources (and I use gradient shadows). And I had to use bigger font size for SD than I usually prefer (which is small, my guests always blame about that and they request much bigger fonts...).
And the last thing. I set the subtitle position to the center of the screen. (The other blame factor but I never move it away. I would not like to drag my eyes and randomly miss the movie picture or the subtitle. And a small subtitle won't cover too much of the picture...)
Give it a try.

Why do you want to change resolution on LCD display? They should always work at their native resolution and it won't harm anything if you keep it at 120Hz all the time.
Window-Fullscreen is weird, yes. But nothing to worry about. I would request many other changes/improvements/fixes before these things. (Sorry, I do not want to provoke you, just...)
This is VSFilter and madVR, bicubic60 for everything (YV12):



This is VSFilter and EVR (RGB32):



Corner case, but you get the idea. This is zoomed on a 720p source, quite visible without zoom too. Black and white subs, no problem since there's no chroma there. As soon as you introduce colors things get out of hand real fast because of the chroma subsampling needed for YV12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Why do you want to change resolution on LCD display? They should always work at their native resolution and it won't harm anything if you keep it at 120Hz all the time.
Window-Fullscreen is weird, yes. But nothing to worry about. I would request many other changes/improvements/fixes before these things. (Sorry, I do not want to provoke you, just...)
I mean real time video resolution change, not screen resolution
And yes, I agree, but weird things need to be noted even if they're not important. In my case, it annoys the hell out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Subtitle is very important to me, but as long as madshi still say "subtitle pin is part of the plan", then I don't think RGB input will be needed much.
Even if you achieve perfect subtitle rendering, YV12 only still has the problem of, well, only allowing YV12 content to be played with madVR. The vast majority is YV12, but it's not the only one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 7th June 2010, 20:31   #3068  |  Link
starlight2
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namaiki now I can not see what version
I installed, but 'I installed the week
ago, and when 'was released 0:17? the processor is i5 650.
Thank you very much
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Old 7th June 2010, 20:34   #3069  |  Link
pirlouy
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I tested all "flush" options one by one (I mean I let "don't flush" for all except the one I am testing), but I always have tearing when playing on 23 or 24Hz. Not a lot, just a line of 2% at bottom. But I have no tearing at all with overlay mixer.
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:06   #3070  |  Link
janos666
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I can see the pictures but I still don't feel it a a problem. You can use white text (with a little black outline and a small shadow if you wish). It will be easily readable. And I recommend Spline64 anyway. Your VGA can handle that easily and it is much better for subtitles (and for the whole movie picture in my opinion) than SoftCubic.
SoftCubic80 makes the picture softer to hide the compression artifacts (and makes the text blurred) but Spline64 will give you more details (of course, fake, but good illusion) without ringing (sharp subtitles).
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:07   #3071  |  Link
Hypernova
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Even if you achieve perfect subtitle rendering, YV12 only still has the problem of, well, only allowing YV12 content to be played with madVR. The vast majority is YV12, but it's not the only one.
Yes, but I think madshi made a point in the beginning that he made madVR accept YV12 only for a reason (which I don't totally understand). So if subtitle doesn't make much of a problem, I don't think he'll change it.
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:36   #3072  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Corner case, but you get the idea. This is zoomed on a 720p source, quite visible without zoom too. Black and white subs, no problem since there's no chroma there. As soon as you introduce colors things get out of hand real fast because of the chroma subsampling needed for YV12.
The whole point of madVR is that it does a really good job with chroma upsampling and the RGB conversion with 16-bit precision. What is the point if you use something else to do the upsampling and conversion to RGB32?

Also, when are subtitles ever colored like that?
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:44   #3073  |  Link
janos666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Also, when are subtitles ever colored like that?
You can use any custom font types and colors if you wish. And some subtitle formats have the possibility to save attributes like color (for example, you will see different colors for different voices - No, I never watch any movie with this functionality. And you can override it...).
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:47   #3074  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I can see the pictures but I still don't feel it a a problem. You can use white text (with a little black outline and a small shadow if you wish). It will be easily readable. And I recommend Spline64 anyway. Your VGA can handle that easily and it is much better for subtitles (and for the whole movie picture in my opinion) than SoftCubic.
SoftCubic80 makes the picture softer to hide the compression artifacts (and makes the text blurred) but Spline64 will give you more details (of course, fake, but good illusion) without ringing (sharp subtitles).
MadVR is all about quality. Quality is severely lacking here. This is not caused by the resizers or madVR itself, it's caused by the inherent limitations of subsampled chroma planes. It's as important as getting the best chroma upsampling IMO, because it's much more visible. Yes, I know how to circunvent this, but I don't really want to say no to quality colored subs if I don't want to. Nobody should. We already have at least 2 good subtitle filters, we only need an RGB input pin to madVR so they can look as good as they do with any other renderer, at least until madshi has time to work on the subtitle pin and renderer.

About spline, it's just personal preference. I like bicubic more than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Yes, but I think madshi made a point in the beginning that he made madVR accept YV12 only for a reason (which I don't totally understand). So if subtitle doesn't make much of a problem, I don't think he'll change it.
I know, but I want to hear what he has to say about this. No RGB fraps videos, no true YUY2 samples, no way of getting quality subs, and similar things. Really a pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
The whole point of madVR is that it does a really good job with chroma upsampling and the RGB conversion with 16-bit precision. What is the point if you use something else to do the upsampling and conversion to RGB32?

Also, when are subtitles ever colored like that?
Because there's more in madVR than just high quality chroma upsampling, as I said in one of my previous posts.

Those subs are a corner case to clearly show the problem, as I said in one of my previous post too. I you want to use subs with any color in them, you'll see that between the body and the outline, between the outline and the shadow, between the outline and the video, etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 7th June 2010, 22:16   #3075  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
The seek bar (timer) has considerable lag...speeds up and slows down, doesn't seem to know where I am in the clip precisely. Wonder if that is related to anything.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=F3DBBK8S

That one I seeked somewhere, used alt+enter to full and alt+enter again to window and closed (no pauses)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V7RYCCJN

I did the same thing here (smaller log file)

It doesn't consistently do this with alt+enter, just seems to have a lot of cases of just ok switching or much worse
Thanks. The hint with the seek bar was helpful. I'll see what I can do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
madshi, have you considered adding support for RGB32 input? I ask this because the only way of displaying subs in madVR is using ffdshow or VSFilter, and in YV12 they work fine but the borders look like crap because of the chroma downsampling needed.
If I generally accept RGB input then some decoders will send RGB instead of YV12, which is bad for quality, because decoders are usually rather bad at chroma upsampling and color conversion. That's the main reason why I only support YV12 input. That said, an extra input pin for subtitles is on my to do list and that should fix your issue with subtitle rendering quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
You'd ask why use madVR then, well, because of the very good vsync it has [...] 1680x1050 at 119,8746...Hz
Oh, another high refresh rate user? I'm surprised how many are out there! Does EVR-Custom/-Sync not work well for such high refresh rates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
madVR doesn't react to real time resolution changes.
Do you have a sample for me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Pause/resume or seek can completely destroy smoothness, from perfectly smooth before pausing, to something similar to 3:2 pulldown after resuming playback. Another pause/resume/seek fixes it.
Will probably be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight2 View Post
Hello, i5 and use a PC with integrated graphics.
Is that Intel integrated graphics? If so, please redownload the latest madVR version. It should work for you. However, Intel integrated graphics is really slow, so you may have to change the scaling algorithm to "bilinear" (right-click on video -> Filters -> madVR) or avoid scaling altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
I tested all "flush" options one by one (I mean I let "don't flush" for all except the one I am testing), but I always have tearing when playing on 23 or 24Hz. Not a lot, just a line of 2% at bottom. But I have no tearing at all with overlay mixer.
Not sure why you still have tearing. It seems to be gone for most other madVR users. Anyway, Aero and exclusive mode should both fix that.
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:11   #3076  |  Link
pirlouy
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In fact, we speak about Aero, but in fact, I think the only thing it does is activate V-Sync from drivers. But there are bugs and V-sync is sometimes disable without noticeable reason. So, if you use Direct3D, you'll be able to activate V-Sync by this method, and we'll be still able not to use Aero.

For tearing, I don't know, maybe it's the 5 meters wire. I don't think so, but to be honest, I don't see 3:2 effect whereas I see tearing, so I watch everything in 60Hz now. It's enough for my eyes.
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:38   #3077  |  Link
pirlouy
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Damn it. I've just seen big tearing in 60Hz (there's a line which go higher and higher and restart at bottom). I've tried to play with options, but no changes.
Strange, 'cause it does not act like this with 0.13; and even 0.17 yesterday... :/
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:41   #3078  |  Link
janos666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Oh, another high refresh rate user? I'm surprised how many are out there! Does EVR-Custom/-Sync not work well for such high refresh rates?
It was said that "2010 will be the year of 3D". The smooth playback of 1080p24(/48) movies on PCs is a side effect of this hype. But I could not see any monitor with IPS or VA LCD panel and 1920x1200@120Hz support, only some horribly expensive TN+Film panels. You can have 3D and/or smooth video playback or correct colors for the same price. (I am not talking about HDTVs.) I hate the feeling of TNs, so i would wait some year with that pronouncement.
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:45   #3079  |  Link
pankov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankov View Post
madshi,
I have to agree with 6233638
I was thinking about requesting one more indicator in the OSD - "repeated frames". I'm not exactly sure if it's possible to have meaningful indicator showing the repeated frames having in mind all the possible variations of the display refresh rate but I guess if you are able to add such an indicator we'll be able to objectively measure the "smoothness" of the playback. After all if there are no dropped frames and no repeated frames we have perfect playback, right?
madshi, I guess you've simply missed my question among other but if it's not too stupid would you care to answer?
Am I understanding it correctly that if we have a missed/dropped or repeated frame we will see stutter? It will be great if we can measure it - "missed/dropped" frames in the last 5 seconds (didn't make it to the screen - to be shown) and "repeated" (or it's more accurate to say - missed vsync at which a new frame should have been presented) frames in the last 5 seconds (stayed too long on screen).
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Old 8th June 2010, 01:21   #3080  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If I generally accept RGB input then some decoders will send RGB instead of YV12, which is bad for quality, because decoders are usually rather bad at chroma upsampling and color conversion. That's the main reason why I only support YV12 input. That said, an extra input pin for subtitles is on my to do list and that should fix your issue with subtitle rendering quality.
I understand, but seriously, there isn't any other real solution to that "issue"? This renderer wants something more than YV12
BTW, even if you add that subtitle pin, you still have to put the subs on screen. Are you going to implement your own subtitle renderer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Oh, another high refresh rate user? I'm surprised how many are out there! Does EVR-Custom/-Sync not work well for such high refresh rates?
It does, but when madVR works it's better. I'll probably switch when all the bugs and missing features are implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Do you have a sample for me?
Just enable/disable the resize filter in ffdshow. For example, take a 1920x1080 movie and resize it to something bigger. madVR will only display the upper left 1920x1080 pixels.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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