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Old 11th December 2003, 17:14   #221  |  Link
AllanonJL
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Determine Bitrate of movie overall

After using this plugin and reducing encoding time by a factor of 2, i'm pleased with the results!

The one issue I have is how to determine the final bitrate of the movie!

Where is it in the logs? Usually you can find the average bitrate in the svcdinfo.txt. I notice that it only has low and max bitrate there.

Also, I followed the install instructions that were scattered across posts, and it all seemed to work out. If there was a file with the instructions that would be great!

I'm also a bit confused about the Q factor. Does the Q factor determine the bitrate or?

Thanks!
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Old 11th December 2003, 19:37   #222  |  Link
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AllanonJL,

This answer applies to DVD mode, where the Q is iteratively determined in order to fit a certain output size. The lower the Q factor, the higher the average bitrate and the better the quality of the encode.

Due to the nature of OPV encoding the exact bitrate is unknown prior to the encode. Only the target bitrate is stated.

The target average bitrate is contained in the file D2SRoBa_log.txt. You will find such a line:

- Target mpv BR : 4738 (max 9500) kbps, size=4398545990. bytes

Of course, this is just the target figure. The final bitrate will be close (usually within 5%) and can be calculated from this information (divide 4498303444 by the movie's length in seconds):

- Actual mpv file size:
10/12/2003 21:24 4498303444 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- OPV pass result: 102.3% on target ( 4498303444 / 4398545990.) CCE 2.67 speed: 0.95

If you invoke the additional resizing pass then the final bitrate is explicitly stated (within 0.1% in this case):

- Executing VBR Sizing Pass - 4738 kbps.
- Actual mpv file size:
10/12/2003 23:31 4395231788 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- Sizing pass result: 99.9% on target ( 4395231788 / 4398545990.) CCE 2.67 speed: 0.97

The fact that you are asking these questions highlights just how good D2SRoBa actually is (thanks Tylo). In other words, it can be used by a comparative beginner - well done.

As for some instructions, http://www.geocities.com/syzygydvd/help/index.htm is a very good guide for DVD users.

Best regards,
Bob
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Old 11th December 2003, 20:05   #223  |  Link
windtrader
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Quote:
syzygytec: It takes way longer but I think Im sticking with 3pass & cce 2.50.
You have got to be kidding! After all the time and energy you've spent on OPV, including the great guide you put together, you now have an epiphany that good old 3-pass MPV is better?

I've been lurkin' and workin' here for the past few days and finally got everything going smoothly with OPV yesterday on DVD to DVD-R. Plan to OPV a few movies later today.

Previously, I had been using 3-pass MPV DVD2DVD and was happy with the results; yes, it takes a fair bit of time but that was not a sreious issue for me. Then I see D2SRoBa with FACAR and read it works as well and in much less time. Sounds like a winner to me.

Admittedly, I've not taken the time to critically compare any OPV vs 3-pass MPV rips, so I can not convey my own experiences. I've been going off what others have posted here. And I am a total dumbsheet about the theory behind all this to make any kind of informed position on the merits of OPV vs MPV.

So, I pose to you experienced ones, how much quality does one really give up (gain) with OPV vs MPV?
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Old 11th December 2003, 21:16   #224  |  Link
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Re: OPV vs 3 pass VBR Quality (DVDs)

I have found that for OPV high Q (>40) encodes, it is definitely benificial from a quality point of view to perform the additional VBR sizing pass. The quality difference between the two was easily discernable; so in future I will always be enabling the resizing pass.

I have yet to perform an OPV (+resize) vs 3 pass VBR comparison for a low Q (<30) movie; but the OPV ones that I have done look acceptable to me.

Over the next couple of days, I will try Shackleton in OPV + VBR resize mode (3 hrs 40 mins long, >8GB) and report my findings.

Syzygytec did you perform the additional re-sizing VBR pass on your OPV encodes? If so, I am suprised you can see such a large difference. Perhaps you have better eyes / playback equipment than me.

Regards,
Bob

P.S. I also found in OPV mode (without the resizing pass), that v2.66.01.07 outperformed v2.50
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Old 11th December 2003, 23:38   #225  |  Link
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I dunno guys it kinda just jumped out and bit me on the arse and the only reason I did MPV was all the muxing failures I've been having with OPV, or I would have never bothered with MPV I LOVE D2SRoBa but it seems CCE no matter 2.50/2.67 I have tried is exceeding it's bitrate confines on low-q movies. The last OPV I had complete w/o failing mux due to too high bitrate was X2 I will be doing this movie again tonite with 2.50, (last was 2.67) I'll do 3 pass VBR and then go do a back to back comparison on my friends 43" Sony and see what looks better to me OPV 2.67 or MPV 2.50 btw we both thought the first X2 was indistinguishable from the original. I'm adding new sections to my guide, for MPV and also SVCD OPV RoBa and MPV as well don't know when I'll finish...it all starts to blend together after staring at it too long..BTW current guide is totally updated ALL new screenies too

(I have alot of ideas for testing this low q cce BUT too damn slow of PC and I think the only way to test it is doing complete movies)

For now for those doing roba and using SS to mux if you fail try lower maxbitrate and maybe CD size 4350 honestly if all worked right you should be able to choose 4480 and max bitrate of 9000 and not go ovesize or over bitrate. I think (but never tried) DVD-Lab or DVDAuthor and maybe other might have muxed and built the one's SS failed BUT don't think they would have played in a standalone.

PS this stuff is making me nuts!
PPS I think maybe Bitrate Viewer is worthless
PPPS Waiting for a OPV plugin for TMPG Enc Plus

Last edited by syzygytec; 12th December 2003 at 00:03.
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Old 12th December 2003, 00:49   #226  |  Link
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Hmmm, well there may well be a new option for dvd creation by dvd2svcd fairly soon that will get around the cantankerous Scenarist. It is in the very early testing phase. If all works out, and it looks like it will, we will have a dvd2XXXx with an easily available and free DVD authoring solution complete with multiple subs and ISO build. As for when, as always, it is when he gets it finished.

Last edited by DDogg; 12th December 2003 at 00:54.
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Old 12th December 2003, 00:52   #227  |  Link
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Re: Determine Bitrate of movie overall

Quote:
Originally posted by AllanonJL
Also, I followed the install instructions that were scattered across posts, and it all seemed to work out. If there was a file with the instructions that would be great!
As jsoto said in another thread, it is not polite to advertise oneself, but there is a FAQ in Tylo's home page, resources section.
Quote:
I'm also a bit confused about the Q factor. Does the Q factor determine the bitrate or?
Again unpolitely, the Idiot's Guide should clear the whole thing about Q, RoBa and even this yet-another-OPV-vs-Multipass thing.
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Old 12th December 2003, 00:54   #228  |  Link
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All I can say to that is ones that failed in SS muxed in what I think your referring to BUT did not work right. I don't know the specs on DVD's compliance but going on an assumption that there must be a bitrate limit I trust SS to know it (it's the defacto)and even if it muxes in some other software it may be non-compliant and not play that would be my idiot guess
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Old 12th December 2003, 01:06   #229  |  Link
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I have found that for OPV high Q (>40) encodes, it is definitely benificial from a quality point of view to perform the additional VBR sizing pass.
Bob - so to force this second pass using OPV you just check the conditional sizing pass box and set both under and over size to 0, right?

Also, I see the calculated Q in the D2SRoBa log. Is there another way to establish the Q before I kick off D2SRoBa?

r6d2 - I'll take a look at those references again. I'm pretty sure I scanned them over before but my pea brain can only digest so much at one setting. And getting through this is more than one meal for me. :-)
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Old 12th December 2003, 01:15   #230  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by windtrader
Bob - so to force this second pass using OPV you just check the conditional sizing pass box and set both under and over size to 0, right?
You might do that, but if you're using Qs above 40 you'll find that the more passes you do the more benefit, to a certain limit of course, since you are in a tight BR constraint environment.

If you are headed for size, and hence want Qs above 40, I suggest you use D2S normal multipass instead. This, however, will not give you the benefit of a quantization (measured with BR Viewer) below 5 or 6, which is IMHO a reasonable value.
Quote:
Also, I see the calculated Q in the D2SRoBa log. Is there another way to establish the Q before I kick off D2SRoBa?
Well, sort of the whole point of RoBa is to find a suitable Q, since it is hard to guess. (Maybe I misunderstood your question.)
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Old 12th December 2003, 02:34   #231  |  Link
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Quote:
Well, sort of the whole point of RoBa is to find a suitable Q, since it is hard to guess. (Maybe I misunderstood your question.)
I was thinking if the number of passes is dependent on Q, then knowing Q before you kick off D2SRoBa would be desirable, since you would set sizing pass on or off based on Q.

It seems a bit convoluted, if even practical, to set up and start D2SRoBa and DVD2DVD then wait until the sampling and computation of Q before deciding if you need the sizing pass.

Alternately, if you always default to forcing the sizing pass (under/over size to zero), then you are decreasing the time advantage over a 3-pass VBR reencode.

Maybe you can estimate Q or use some other measure like movie duration to determine if you want the sizing pass.
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Old 12th December 2003, 02:57   #232  |  Link
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Manually find Q from mpegit.net paceri
Quote:
This is very important thing, so get a pen and paper! Now that CCE has encoded 1% of the movie, check out the size of the MPV-file and myltibly it by 100! The desired file size -> Movie+ac3 = 4.38 GB! For example if you got a AC3-file size of 300 Mb, you'll have approximately 4 GB room for the videodata. So you have to do MPV-file size of approximately 4 GB (now only 4GB/100=40MB!)! How can we do this? You can find it out by using a little of math:

1.) Q=32 file size < desired size-> set Q value to (0+32)/2=16
2.) Q=16 file size > desired size -> set Q value to (16+32)/2=24
3.) Q=24 file size > desired size -> set Q value to (24+32)/2=28
4.) Q=28 file size < desired size -> set Q value to (24+28)/2=26
5.) Q=26 file size < desired size -> set Q value to (24+26)/2=25
6.) Q=25 file size = desired size -> the right value of Q is 25!

It may seem that it's hard and time-consuming, but it isn't that. You have to do the operation max six times, but it may take even less if you find the right 'Q' value right away. By the way, you don't need to exit from CCE while you're searching the right 'Q' value. You just need to change the 'Q' value, save the changes and press 'Encode'...
If that mathematical part seems too hard for you, then here's easier way. If you set smaller 'Q' value, the file size will increase and if you set higher 'Q' value the file size will decrease. By chancing the 'Q' value you can find the right one.
I've noticed that it's better to find a 'Q' value which makes slightly bigger file than the desired file is. When you encode whole 100% of the movie, it's usual 8-10% smaller than it should be. It's good to add that 8-10% to the desired file size. For example if you want to have file size of 4000 Mb, you should find a 'Q' value which makes it approximately 4300-4400 Mb.
http://www.mpegit.net/dvdr_opv.php
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Old 12th December 2003, 09:36   #233  |  Link
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Quote:
I was thinking if the number of passes is dependent on Q, then knowing Q before you kick off D2SRoBa would be desirable, since you would set sizing pass on or off based on Q.
I could add another constraint for doing sizing pass: Q above a certain number.
Then you wouldn't need to do all that above.
Quote:
If that mathematical part seems too hard for you, then here's easier way. If you set smaller 'Q' value, the file size will increase and if you set higher 'Q' value the file size will decrease. By chancing the 'Q' value you can find the right one.
Yes, but by how much should you change the Q? I have found a way to guess it with very good accuracy:

nextQ = Q + (1.5 * Q * (fileSize - desiredSize)/desiredSize)

You will actually find the target Q within 2 to 4 iterations, and not 6, as with the binary search - and also works for high Qs. Try it!
ps: be aware that if you are aiming at bitrates near max/maxavg (low Qs), this won't work so well, because the Q func is very unlinear there.
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Old 12th December 2003, 17:07   #234  |  Link
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Quote:
I could add another constraint for doing sizing pass: Q above a certain number.
Tylo, GREAT. That feature would make it totally painless and automatic, and enable even more flexibility and control over the final quality. It gives the user the ability to easily define and set their own optimal point on the "quality" vs "time" curve.

If one is in a hurry, the user can still manually uncheck the conditional pass box. It seems like you would implement it as another OR condition along with the under/over size settings.
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Old 12th December 2003, 18:00   #235  |  Link
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Quote:
Over the next couple of days, I will try Shackleton in OPV + VBR resize mode (3 hrs 40 mins long, >8GB) and report my findings.
bobwillis, loolking forward to the results of your tests.
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Old 12th December 2003, 21:05   #236  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by windtrader
Tylo, GREAT. That feature would make it totally painless and automatic, and enable even more flexibility and control over the final quality. It gives the user the ability to easily define and set their own optimal point on the "quality" vs "time" curve.
And would bring back VBR to D2Sroba, which was exiled for some versions but still deserves its place.
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Old 12th December 2003, 22:50   #237  |  Link
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Not sure I ever got an answer to this..but if you uncheck the sizing pass what keeps you from oversize?

Also note on the too HIGH bitrate muxing failed....same deal in scenarist 3.0 for what its worth FYI
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Old 12th December 2003, 23:57   #238  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by syzygytec
Not sure I ever got an answer to this..but if you uncheck the sizing pass what keeps you from oversize?
In that case you are in The Lord's hands.
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Old 13th December 2003, 00:06   #239  |  Link
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Hi syzygytec,

Quote: Not sure I ever got an answer to this..but if you uncheck the sizing pass what keeps you from oversize?

I think (from my experience), the answer is unfortunately nothing, unless you alter the adjust Q figure. A value of 0, should hopefully prevent an oversize. My experiments suggest that you should always perform the additional VBR sizing pass in order to acheive maximum quality from this OPV method.

Shackleton (3 hrs 25mins >8GB) unfortunately turned out to be a high Q encode (56), it is burning now. I'll let you know the results tomorrow morning (12 hrs from now).

@Tylo:

Unfortunately, the encode ended up oversized - 4,709,474,304 bytes. This is no big problem, since I deleted the last VOB in order to burn for testing purposes. This was with the additional sizing pass enabled. I don't think this is your problem; more a problem with CCE. I think this because it happened with standard DVD2DVD (3 pass VBR) weeks ago. I'll post the log though so you can evaluate for yourself:

--------------------------------------------------------
D2SRoBa v3.0.8
- Author: Tylo
- System: WIN_XP, AutoIt: 3.0.75.0
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2003-12-12 15:54:16
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- Output type : DVD
- CD size : 4480
- Number of CD's : 1
- Sample percent : 2.0
- Auto Q / Max Q : 40 / 100
- Adjust Q : 1.0
- Sizing pass : Yes (-0.0 .. 0.0)%
- Audio after video : No
- Adjust max br : No
- Batch prepare : No
- Clean previous : Yes
- Crash recover : No
--------------------------------------------------------
- Waiting for CCE window ...
- Detected a CCE encode window
- Detected the CCE main movie encode window... trying to kill it.
- Finished shutdown of CCE and D2S
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 03:25:38 (308453 frames, 25 fps)
- D2S audio brate : (224 + 0) kbps
- D2S video estim. : 2744 kbps, 1 CDs
- Select Ranges : every 600, select 12 frames
- Sample frames : 6180
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- 1 CD: video_br=2744 (2744) audio1_br=224 video_sz=4231975160. fill=100.0% cbr=0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 1
- Target mpv BR : 2744 (max 9500) kbps, size=4231975160. bytes
--------------------------------------------------------
Search for Q:
- Estim. mpv BR : 4820 (Q=25, err=75.7%, size=7435008410., sample sz=148963868.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 2881 (Q=53, err=5.0%, size=4444474721., sample sz=89047128.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 2811 (Q=55, err=2.4%, size=4335843963., sample sz=86870660.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 2743 (Q=57, err=-0.0%, size=4231691263., sample sz=84783912.)
- Determined Q : 56 = round(57 - 1.0 + (-0.0)/1.2)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-12-12 16:42:42
- Actual mpv file size:
12/12/2003 19:24 4067382664 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- OPV pass result: 96.1% on target ( 4067382664 / 4231975160.) CCE 2.67 speed: 1.27
--------------------------------------------------------
- Executing VBR Sizing Pass - 2744 kbps.
- Actual mpv file size:
12/12/2003 22:04 4231168940 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- Sizing pass result: 100.0% on target ( 4231168940 / 4231975160.) CCE 2.67 speed: 1.28
--------------------------------------------------------
- Recover:
- 2003-12-12 22:05:01

Regards,
Bob.

Last edited by bobwillis; 13th December 2003 at 14:29.
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Old 13th December 2003, 05:31   #240  |  Link
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the little plugin i made for myself for docce4u does a calculation everyother real 1% pass. . under q=10 i wont calculate. anywho i started using my quick plugin again and i just lower the max bitrate by 1000 kbps (probably overdoing it) ... seems to be fine.

i prefer the opv 1.) its faster. 2) i think the quality is excellent and imho better than a low multipass encode (3 and under) 3) its faster!
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