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Old 5th October 2011, 14:00   #9981  |  Link
SamuriHL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I use Lanczos 4-taps for both Luma variants, and SoftCubic 60 for Chroma.
Lanczos produces a bit sharper image when watching SD content, which i've been doing alot lately.
That's what I've been using as well.

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Old 5th October 2011, 16:56   #9982  |  Link
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I was using the defaults and it seemed the best, but I will give a go at the SoftCubic 60 for Luma and see if it makes a difference since I have not tried changing just that one alone.

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Old 5th October 2011, 17:24   #9983  |  Link
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I user Softcubic 60 for chroma and Spline 4 taps for luma up/down scale.
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Old 5th October 2011, 17:37   #9984  |  Link
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I like softcubic 100 for chroma upsampling and spline36 (3 taps) for luma up/downsampling.
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Old 5th October 2011, 17:39   #9985  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I actually get glitches if i use 16 buffers, 12 seems to be the sweet spot for me right now.
Combined with "use a separate device for presentation" (but not DX11), flushing: dont/flush/flush/dont and "limit rendering times to avoid glitches", its pretty much perfect now.

Default settings used to glitch on non-matched refresh rates, be it 25p at 50Hz, or even 24p at 60Hz, but these are perfect.

This is on a GTS450
Thanks for your experiment with the setting. I tried yours & it works nicely !
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Old 5th October 2011, 19:04   #9986  |  Link
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I use spline 4 taps for luma upscaling and Mitchell-Netravali for chroma.

I tested them all a while back for luma upscaling on 720p content and spline4 is simply the best in my opinion - all of the filters except for lanczos and spline produce noticeable blurriness which is bad when watching anime, and stuff like eg. small signs and text is much sharper and clearer when using lanczos/spline, and the ringing lanczos produces is a bit too noticeable, so I prefer spline.
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Old 5th October 2011, 19:28   #9987  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
I use spline 4 taps for luma upscaling and Mitchell-Netravali for chroma.

I tested them all a while back for luma upscaling on 720p content and spline4 is simply the best in my opinion - all of the filters except for lanczos and spline produce noticeable blurriness which is bad when watching anime, and stuff like eg. small signs and text is much sharper and clearer when using lanczos/spline, and the ringing lanczos produces is a bit too noticeable, so I prefer spline.
When you first said you use Mitchell-Netravali for chroma I tested it and havent changed since. I love the quality.
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Old 5th October 2011, 20:11   #9988  |  Link
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I like Mitchell for Luma Upscaling and Bucubic 75 for Chroma. I think that also agrees with 6233638. Catmull works well for Luma Upscaling too, just noticeably more ringing. I play a lot of SD movies myself, and personally, since the resolution isn't there to begin with I'd rather end up with a satisfying picture. So Mitchell for SD, Catmull for HD
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Old 5th October 2011, 22:00   #9989  |  Link
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With the MPC-HC subtitle position bug now fixed, I'm going to renew interest in the issue of subtitles not being color corrected.

This is the current most major problem with the internal subtitle renderer - the fact that VSFilter simply blends in with the video better because subtitles are color corrected along with the video, where as something like gamut mapping or gamma correction makes subtitles stand out.

If I understand things correctly, video content gets upscaled / converted etc. before all color management happens, and the subtitles simply get rendered on at the end. So it can't possible hurt to simply render the subtitles before applying color management and gamma correction, right? There's no information to destroy, after all - no spatial processing is performed after RGB conversion.
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Old 5th October 2011, 22:12   #9990  |  Link
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Why do you ask madshi to fix mpc-hc problem??
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Old 5th October 2011, 23:27   #9991  |  Link
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Nevline,
what exactly do you call a "mpc-hc problem"?
What nand chan is asking for makes sense to me even if it's not that important for most of the HTPC users because the problem is mostly/only visible on anime where they use very advanced subtitle rendering. For the rest, like me, the subs are just "simple white letters" rendered over the movie and if the white is not exactly white I can live with it.
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Old 5th October 2011, 23:39   #9992  |  Link
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I think Nevilne meant the color problem was a MPC-HC subtitle renderer, and Madshi is not interested in fixing it (especially if he is very buggy).
But maybe nand chan meant it is a madVR bug.

I'm a good mediator.
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Old 6th October 2011, 00:10   #9993  |  Link
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Traditional way of handling SSA subtitles is to render subtitles on video image in-between decoder and renderer
(vsfilter, ffdshow)

Subtitles can also be rendered on vmr surface independently from video image.
This gives some advantages such as untouched source, desktop subtitle resolution even for sd video,
and some drawbacks, like subtitle flicker and not liking every renderer.

Afaik rendering SSA like that is only possible with mpc-hc and "borrowed" code from mpc-hc (kmplayer, potplayer)

My point is that I assume that renderer is not responsible for content outside picture from decoder, like various osd content, player ui and vmr subtitles (though I'm probably wrong because I remember madshi talking about this)

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edit: we're over 500 pages, madvr ftw!

Last edited by Nevilne; 6th October 2011 at 00:13.
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Old 6th October 2011, 00:17   #9994  |  Link
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yes, you are correct in general, but the problem happens when the renderer performs color correction of the picture only from the decoder and not from the subtitles input pin. This results in different colors of the subs and the image bellow. As I said before it's not a problem with normal subs but could be very ugly with complex SSA subs that have specially designed backgrounds that should exactly match the color from the video frame from the decoder.
I hope now you understand what nand chan is talking about.
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Old 6th October 2011, 00:27   #9995  |  Link
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I agree and I use vmr subtitles as well, I just don't see it as top priority over other madvr improvements.
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Old 6th October 2011, 00:34   #9996  |  Link
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I don't see it as priority too - I was just trying to clear nand chan's request
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Old 6th October 2011, 17:34   #9997  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
I think Nevilne meant the color problem was a MPC-HC subtitle renderer, and Madshi is not interested in fixing it (especially if he is very buggy).
But maybe nand chan meant it is a madVR bug.

I'm a good mediator.
It's a bug with madVR as has been mentioned earlier - the subs are passed directly to madVR in RGB32 format, and madVR renders them on top of the video.

MPC-HC doesn't touch the video stream at all. madVR is the component that should be color correcting the subtitles it gets from MPC-HC, since madVR is also the component that color corrects the rest of video. Color correction is part of the rendering process.

It may not be a high priority for others, but it's probably a one line change for madshi (or otherwise just a copy paste).

You could also provide a checkbox to turn it on in the tweaks section.
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Old 6th October 2011, 22:01   #9998  |  Link
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Hi madshi,
I sometimes experience a madVR bug that completely freezes ZP. I can't replicate it with the other renderers (VMR9/EVR).
It happens after a frequency switch while media playback is starting, using madVR's internal frequency switcher. (tried madVR switching, manual switching, ReClock switching, makes no difference..).

Using ZP8 prefinal 23 + latest madVR (v0.74), default settings.
XP SP3/ nVidia 285.38

What happens is: I open media, madVR detects framerate and changes frequency accordingly (from 720p60 to 720p24 with this test media). Now under 720p24, sometimes interacting with ZP's control bar (seeking media) will completely freeze the app.
Right before this happens, the ZP control bar (fullscreen) is drawn slowly onto the screen, it lags a lot.
It happens with any video stream/decoder. My test video is a simple XVID .avi file and I could reproduce the issue with ffdshow, LAV Video or even standalone Xvid decoder.

It seems to happen only when ZP's option "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API" is disabled.

How to reproduce:

1. In ZP settings, at "Playback" > "Video", disable "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API"
(Note: the "Video covers entire display area" option and madVR's FSE feature have NO impact on this bug, it happens regardless if FSE is totally disabled in madVR or not.)

2. Start playing a video, exemple: an XVID .avi file (decoded by ffdshow or LAV.. same results)

3. While the movie is playing, switch the frequency of the display. (exemple 720p60 to 720p50 or 24)

4. Now in ZP, go fullscreen and bring the control bar.

5. More often than not at this point the issue can be seen: the control bar is drawn slowly onto the screen, you can see its skin elements being drawn one by one.
If you scroll the control bar at this point, for say 20 seconds, it will completely freeze ZP.
Killing the ZP process manually is needed.

If after going fullscreen the control bar is OK for you, please switch the frequency a couple times more [while movie is playing] to try and reproduce the issue, for exemple go back to 720p60 and then again to 720p50 or 24), then go in fullscreen and bring the control bar again to see.

It happens not _always_, but often enough to be really annoying. XD

A few things that I found while testing:
-It only happens with madVR, couldn't fault the other renderers.
-It seems to only happen when ZP's "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API" disabled.
-It happens regardless of video decoder.
-It happens regardless if ZP "resumes media playback from last point" or not.
-When the control bar/ZP is in this weird slow state, if I just close and restart media playback (not ZP !) or open another media, the bug disappears (no more laggy ZP/freeze due).
-It happens regardless if the frequency is switched manually (via shortcuts, nv control panel), or automatically (Reclock or madVR's internal frequency switcher).
-I tried down to madVR build 050, the issue is present too.

Sorry for the length, it's one of those annoying ones to reproduce

I enclose a madVR DEBUG log.
For this log, I just open ZP, bring it fullscreen and start media playback. After madVR switches the frequency, I bring the ZP control bar and scroll for 3 few seconds. ZP freezes completely. The log stops after I killed ZP process manually. Total time around 8 seconds.

I hope you can look into it and hopefully it won't be hard to track down!
Later,

TSR

Edit: alternative link for the log.
Attached Files
File Type: zip madVR_freeze_ZP - log.zip (183.0 KB, 47 views)
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Last edited by TheShadowRunner; 11th October 2011 at 00:30.
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Old 6th October 2011, 23:40   #9999  |  Link
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better upload the log elsewhere, sometimes it can take quite long until stuff gets approved
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Old 7th October 2011, 00:12   #10000  |  Link
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Quote:
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better upload the log elsewhere, sometimes it can take quite long until stuff gets approved
Thanks, could help, although I'm not sure madshi follows the thread at all XD
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