madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[har3inger]

Hahaha... wow. I guess someone was behind the times.

I did a bit of digging, and it appears that forcing film/video mode is really the only thing that doesn't play nice with madvr. Someone also mentioned vsfilter, but xySubfilter works just fine on my end. If I don't ever deal with interlaced content, there isn't really a reason not to use DXVA2-native, correct?

The OSD and my eye both report that chroma resizing is not DXVA and listens to madvr settings (OSD says jinc3 ar). It's also very obviously nearest neighbor when I tell it to be. I'm getting a big (4-5ms) render time improvement under identical settings/IQ.

The card's not that old, but it's in mobile config. It's an ati 8870m paired to an intel ivy bridge 4000hd.

[huhn]

that's the first time i see a system where DXVA native is clearly faster than copy back.

[cyberscott]

Any one notice that DSD11 10 bit exclusive clips whites? With it enabled, white bar "234" in AVS HD 709 white clipping test pattern no longer flashes. Only bar "233" and below flashes. When DSD11 10 bit exclusive isn't used, white bar "234" is clearly flashing again.

It isn't an issue with madVR as far as I can tell. I can repeat the same clipping issue using Media Player.net exclusive mode with no madVR running.

No black clipping occurs, though. Just white clipping in DSD11 exclusive.

[huhn]

have you checked 10 bit output with mpdn not only exclusive? could be your screen.
i personally don't have this issue.

[cyberscott]

Originally Posted by huhn

have you checked 10 bit output with mpdn not only exclusive? could be your screen.
i personally don't have this issue.

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that full screen exclusive mode is currently needed to output 10 bit regardless of the video player?

I did a little more investigation, appears 10 bit is causing the white clipping in exclusive mode. If I change madVR's bit output to 8, no white clipping occurs in DSD11 exclusive. If I change the bit output to 9 or 10, the white clipping comes back.
Same thing happens in MPDN if I change bit output and DSD mode as well.

Just a little annoying as my Samsung LED is a 10 bit panel. In 8 bit mode, I can clearly see "234" flashing and a little of the "235" white bar. With 10 bit enabled, "233" is clear and "234" is barely visible in a darken room. Oh well. Just the nature of my panel, I guess or the current state of affairs with nVidia's drivers.

* New info...: If I use madVR's custom RGB level setting and change white from 255 down one to 254, the white clipping goes away in 10 bit exclusive mode. Strange but it works.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by huhn

that's not the case.

jinc is used for a 16/9 1440x1080 source when scaled to 1920x1080 but is not used when the image is downscale a bit.

example:
http://abload.de/img/jincaysyl.png
http://abload.de/img/jinc21duwb.png

there is maybe a reason why jinc is not used. i simply don't know how madVR handle up and downscale at the same time jinc can't downscale that's what i know for sure.

The Jinc setting does use Lanczos3 instead when downscaling is needed in one direction, madshi has stated this in the past though finding the post might be hard.

[Magik Mark]

Originally Posted by cyberscott

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that full screen exclusive mode is currently needed to output 10 bit regardless of the video player?

I did a little more investigation, appears 10 bit is causing the white clipping in exclusive mode. If I change madVR's bit output to 8, no white clipping occurs in DSD11 exclusive. If I change the bit output to 9 or 10, the white clipping comes back.
Same thing happens in MPDN if I change bit output and DSD mode as well.

Just a little annoying as my Samsung LED is a 10 bit panel. In 8 bit mode, I can clearly see "234" flashing and a little of the "235" white bar. With 10 bit enabled, "233" is clear and "234" is barely visible in a darken room. Oh well. Just the nature of my panel, I guess or the current state of affairs with nVidia's drivers.

* New info...: If I use madVR's custom RGB level setting and change white from 255 down one to 254, the white clipping goes away in 10 bit exclusive mode. Strange but it works.

Yes that is correct. Greyscale is different. The same goes true to MPDN. Right now I have an external video processor to correct this.

You have mention madvr custom rgb. How do we access this? Custom 3dlut?

[cyberscott]

Originally Posted by Magik Mark

Yes that is correct. The same goes true to MPDN. Right now I have an external video processor to correct this.

You have mention madvr custom rgb. How do we access this? Custom 3dlut?

It is a setting in madVR, It is under Devices - Monitor - Properties-. There is a drop down box under "The display expects the following RGB output levels. I went to "custom levels" and made the changes there. This setting for custom adjustments of RGB Limited Range (TV Levels) or Full Range (PC Levels)

[Magik Mark]

Originally Posted by cyberscott

It is a setting in madVR, It is under Devices - Monitor - Properties-. There is a drop down box under "The display expects the following RGB output levels. I went to "custom levels" and made the changes there. This setting for custom adjustments of RGB Limited Range (TV Levels) or Full Range (PC Levels)

Ahh yes. I had mine setted at tv levels. This is the correct setting if you have an ISF calibrated display. Video test patterns will show this corectly

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by Magik Mark

Ahh yes. I had mine setted at tv levels. This is the correct setting if you have an ISF calibrated display. Video test patterns will show this corectly

Setting madVR to PC levels (0-255) will avoid clipping. I've read in the JRiver Media Center guide that the graphics card should be set to TV levels, not the video renderer, if the TV expects 16-235.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes

Yes, I noticed this too, although not the correlation with doing stuff on the primary monitor (I didn't look too close though). I noticed that with DX11 mode, I would get bunches of dropped frames periodically (like, a bunch in a row), and sometimes the queues would fail to fill until I paused and unpaused. With DX9, the presentation glitches counter would steadily rise (causing visual glitches), but it wouldn't actually drop any frames on madVR's end.

I have no idea whether or not this is a regression though - the presentation glitches seem like a DWM problem, but perhaps the DX11 behavior could be improved.

Exactly.
Please try to recreate this behavior by scrolling in browser on the primary monitor while wathching fullscreen on the secondary.
I may have to test erlier builds to help madshi pinpoint the origin of the problem.
Anyone else use a secondary display to verify this?

[Anime Viewer]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Exactly.
Please try to recreate this behavior by scrolling in browser on the primary monitor while wathching fullscreen on the secondary.
I may have to test erlier builds to help madshi pinpoint the origin of the problem.
Anyone else use a secondary display to verify this?

I usually run with video playing on my secondary display while occasionally browsing or typing in a browser window on my primary (in extended mode). I just tested scrolling in this thread as well as changing between tabs, and I didn't have any problems. I ran with both Direct3D11 in Windowed and Exclusive mode without issue.

What are your settings? For reference I am currently running with:
Image Enhancement - FineSharp checked with settings of Strength 0.1 and thinning 0.035
Both of my upscaling are set to bicubic
Downscaling is Lanczos
Image doubling is super-xbr
Upscaling refinement is all unchecked
general settings - all checked except for delay playback start until render queue is full
ordered dithering
trade quality for performance - only thing checked is don't use linear light for dithering

If you have anything enabled that I mentioned as disabled on my system that may be your culprit. (Edit: You're using version 88.12, correct?)

[Magik Mark]

Originally Posted by Warner306

Setting madVR to PC levels (0-255) will avoid clipping. I've read in the JRiver Media Center guide that the graphics card should be set to TV levels, not the video renderer, if the TV expects 16-235.

The only way to test this theory is to run test patterns. My system consists with htpc, lumagen radiance mini & Pioneer Kuro (36bit) isf calibrated. My video processor though is set to pc levels

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Magik Mark

The only way to test this theory is to run test patterns. My system consists with htpc, lumagen radiance mini & Pioneer Kuro (36bit) isf calibrated. My video processor though is set to pc levels

madshi said madVR at 16-235 and GPU at 0-255 is better for a display that needs 16-235 in term of picture quality:
you can read it here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post23274961

So... what's a good FineSharp setting for HQ content and what's a good FineSharp setting for LQ content? I see some disagreement, but I definitely want the setting that does create (much) additional ringing and know whether to enable FineSharp in Image Enhancement and/or in Upscaling Refinement or both..?

[fairchild]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

So... what's a good FineSharp setting for HQ content and what's a good FineSharp setting for LQ content? I see some disagreement, but I definitely want the setting that does create (much) additional ringing and know whether to enable FineSharp in Image Enhancement and/or in Upscaling Refinement or both..?

You could setup profiles for SD and HD like so. Personally I just use FineSharp in image enhancement for HD material with a strength of 1.5, and use only super-xbr for image doubling on SD with exact 2.0x scaling factor. So basically my image doubling only activates on content that is 960x540 or less (half of my screen resolution of 1920x1080)

if (srcHeight <= 540) and (srcWidth <= 960) "SD"
else if (srcHeight >= 541) and (srcWidth >= 961) "HD"

FineSharp - image enhancements OFF (SD)
FineSharp - image enhancements ON (HD)

Originally Posted by fairchild

You could setup profiles for SD and HD like so. Personally I just use FineSharp in image enhancement for HD material with a strength of 1.5, and use only super-xbr for image doubling on SD with exact 2.0x scaling factor. So basically my image doubling only activates on content that is 960x540 or less (half of my screen resolution of 1920x1080)



FineSharp - image enhancements OFF (SD)
FineSharp - image enhancements ON (HD)

I used NNEDI3 for Chroma Upscaling (+ SuperRes filter)and Image Doubling/Quadrupling... Also, I saw some info on how Linear Light can create ringing. Is that something I should disable in Image Downscaling?

Does LumaSharpen add even more ringing and artifacts then FineSharp with NNEDI3 + SuperRest filter for Chroma Upscaling and Image Doubling/Quadrupling? In video games, LumaSharpen looks better than FineSharp, but I am uncertain about video playback. I've yet to see a comparison between FineSharp and LumaSharpen as far as overall resulting images and artifacts/ringing/aliasing goes. I mean I can capture an image myself and check it out, but I am not an expert on which shots to take for a good comparison.

[omarank]

Originally Posted by madshi

Hmmmm... I've done some checks with Anime content now, and I have to say, although I was able to find some examples where "LL on" looked better, it was much easier to find examples where "LL on" screwed things up quite noticably. The BT.709 test build seems to sit in the middle, but from a quick check with Anime content, my vote right now would still go to "LL off", because there are more situations where "LL off" looks better compared to even the BT.709 middle ground test build.

Can anybody else besides iSunrise, aufkrawall and me go back to v0.88.11 and compare FineSharp with LL on/off with Anime content (and maybe double check with the test build)? There were several votes in favor of "LL on", so I don't want to revert that decision without some more "support". Thanks.

FineSharp LL: Despite the artifacts produced by LL ON setting, I find it makes the image more pleasing as compared to LL OFF setting. This may be due to the overall brightness of the image being closer to the original image when LL ON setting is used. I think that instead of considering LL OFF setting as a good compromise for all kinds of content, you should rather tune the LL ON setting such that the artifacts it produces can be removed/ reduced. As you will be investigating this possibility as per Shiandow’s suggestion, I am looking forward to seeing the tuned LL ON setting.

super-xbr: With soft source content, I like super-xbr for chroma upscaling. For image doubling, NNEDI3 looks better, but this is a good alternative for cases where NNEDI3 can’t be handled by the system.

NEDI chroma: I didn’t like it much. Jinc normally looks the best for chroma upscaling.

I haven’t tested super-xbr and NEDI chroma with SuperRes as Shiandow is already working to improve it. I will wait for him to release the improved version.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by tFWo

Some Finesharp settings i found i like on good old live action movies. (for a change :P )

- suggested strength for image enhancement (depends on grain and source quality, 1080p, no upscaling) - 0.4-0.6 low, 0.8-1.0 medium, 1.4-1.6 high (>2.0 ultra)
* thinning - 0.010 - 0.020 seems ok

- strength for upscaling refinement (720p, s-xbr doubling) - 0.6-0.8
* thinning - 0.000 - 0.005 - any noise or blocking is boosted by a large amount even with the lowest settings

- strength for upscaling refinement (SD, s-xbr quading) - <=0.4
* thinning - 0.000 - same as above and even more pronounced

s-xbr observations on same content

- used NNEDI32/64 for image doubling before trying s-xbr, can't find any reason to go back to NNEDI -_- . s-xbr is faster, sharper and i really can't find major drawbacks for image doubling use.

- tried it for chroma uspcaling on SD content and compared to NNEDI64 s-xbr is worse/different??? It's sharper, but there is some strange detail loss in some places.

Thanks for your feedback. I did find a bug in the super-xbr chroma upscaling algorithm, which will be fixed in the next build. Maybe that will solve the issue with the strange detail loss?

Originally Posted by mogli

With D3D11 I do have lower rendering and presentation times. Is this a real performance gain or some pseudo effect like things happening behind madVRs back?

Edit: Clock state stays the same as with D3D9.

Probably using D3D9 and activating the "use a separate device for presentation" would give you the same benefit. At least that's my guess. D3D11 as used by madVR should not give you a performance benefit, except in very specific situations (in FSE mode if "present a frame for every VSync" is activated, and if your display refresh rate is higher than the movie frame rate).

Originally Posted by Shiandow

At least I've managed to prevent SuperRes from introducing any aliasing

How?

Originally Posted by Eyldebrandt

I've make some tries today, and the repair function clearly seems to improve the aliasing control introduced by xstr.
So, i'll keep digging that way.

I've tried today to find a repair setting which works for every xstr value. Unfortunately it seems that if I set repair so high that the aliasing introduced by xstr is fixed, xstr doesn't have any benefit, anymore. So my latest impression is that xstr=thinning may have to be completely disabled...

The problem could probably be solved (or at least reduced) by using a large supersampling factor. But that would be too slow to make sense, I think.

Originally Posted by mindbomb

quick question about image doubling. When you select super xbr or nedi, it becomes selected automatically for chroma, but when I check the stats with ctrl+j, it only shows super xbr/nedi for luma though. Does it only work on luma?

That sounds weird. Screenshot of the OSD?

Originally Posted by viewer

additional question, why this rule does not working?

if (targetWidth != srcWidth) "A"
else "B"

I'm not sure. If this is a reproduceable problem, then please add it to the bug tracker - thanks!

Originally Posted by MSL_DK

I have found out what happens. It's pretty simple but equally annoying. My AMD graphics card switches on and off "High Performance Mode"

See? The old statistics simply averaged in this situation, leaving you with useless numbers.

Originally Posted by Werewolfy

But honestly I find very optimistic to think you can set 3 presets for sharpness... My TV has 4 options for sharpness, 2 of them have 100 levels. I agree that there is too many options atm but to reduce that at only 3 presets is maybe a little bit too extreme. What about just a strength setting for each sharpness filter? For Fine Sharp, you could for example set the strength and the thinning for each level. I don't say we have to find 100 levels of course but it will be a more flexible solution I think. You only have one parameter that controls everything but remains very flexible like you find on a TV.

I'm not sure where I'll end up. For now I want to reduce all of the "new" options (introduced in v0.88.0+) as much as possible. If reducing something won't make sense, then I won't do it. But I'm willing to sacrifice *some* flexibility to get simpler controls.

Judging by the current feedback, I may have to offer a slider for FineSharp instead of low/medium/high. But it should be just one slider, not two. And I'd still prefer to have low/medium/high. But we'll see...

Originally Posted by TheElix

I have been waiting for someone to report what I'm seeing but I guess I'm the only one. Since the introduction of DX11 version, whenever I choose it I get flickering video 30 second into the playback. And it's not disappearing until I restart the player or revert back to DX9. By flickering I mean alternating video frames with black frames. Like suddenly the video goes to 3D mode and shutter glasses activates over the screen. Please, tell me if this issue has been encountered already. I have a Radeon HD7990 with 15.5 Beta Drivers (Win 7 x64).

Do you have a similar effect when using D3D9 with the "use a separate device for presentation" enabled?

Do you have custom flush settings? Have you tried resetting madVR to default settings, and just enable D3D11?

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Madshi, switching from FSE to windowed then back to FSE via right click is causing the render and present queues to struggle to stay full and I continue to get dropped frames.
This only happens when I have madVR set to display out at 10 bit with D3D 11, enabling present a frame for every vsync doesn't affect it at all.

But as long as you don't switch, the queues all fill just fine in both windowed and FSE modes? What happens if you disable the display mode switcher and set your display to 60Hz? Does that change anything? What happens if you lower the number of prepresented frames to 6? Does that "solve" the problem?

Originally Posted by James Freeman

There is a queue problem in secondary monitor when there is a youtube (or other?) video in the primary monitor.

Do the queues fill back up automatically when you close the browser?

Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes

Yes, I noticed this too, although not the correlation with doing stuff on the primary monitor (I didn't look too close though). I noticed that with DX11 mode, I would get bunches of dropped frames periodically (like, a bunch in a row), and sometimes the queues would fail to fill until I paused and unpaused. With DX9, the presentation glitches counter would steadily rise (causing visual glitches), but it wouldn't actually drop any frames on madVR's end.

I have no idea whether or not this is a regression though - the presentation glitches seem like a DWM problem, but perhaps the DX11 behavior could be improved.

If you can find a reproducable case which does *not* consist of some other software also using the GPU, please let me know.

Originally Posted by omarank

FineSharp LL: Despite the artifacts produced by LL ON setting, I find it makes the image more pleasing as compared to LL OFF setting. This may be due to the overall brightness of the image being closer to the original image when LL ON setting is used. I think that instead of considering LL OFF setting as a good compromise for all kinds of content, you should rather tune the LL ON setting such that the artifacts it produces can be removed/ reduced. As you will be investigating this possibility as per Shiandow’s suggestion, I am looking forward to seeing the tuned LL ON setting.

Unfortunately I've tried and failed, at least for now. I haven't managed to make FineSharp maintain the overall brightness without introducing noticeable artifacts. Please try some Anime content and watch black/dark lines. Compare with v0.88.11, so you can turn LL on/off. I think you will have no problem finding several instances where LL on produces significant artifacts. Because of that I've now disabled LL for now in the latest build. Maybe I'll find a solution at some time in the future. But for now I consider the artifacts too strong and they occur too often to keep using LL on.

Originally Posted by omarank

super-xbr: With soft source content, I like super-xbr for chroma upscaling. For image doubling, NNEDI3 looks better, but this is a good alternative for cases where NNEDI3 can’t be handled by the system.

NEDI chroma: I didn’t like it much. Jinc normally looks the best for chroma upscaling.

Thanks for the feedback. I don't like NEDI for chroma upscaling, either. FWIW, I've found a little bug in super-xbr chroma upscaling. Please compare again. Maybe super-xbr could replace Jinc as the "best medium speed" chroma upscaler?

[madshi]

madVR v0.88.13 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* added super-xbr "sharpness" parameter (50, 75, 100 = default, 125)
* big speed for super-xbr chroma upscaling
* small speedup for super-xbr image doubling
* FineSharp no longer uses linear light (for now)
* added IMadVRCommand interface, replaces IMadVRSeekbar/ExclusiveModeControl
* added IMadVRCommand::SendCommand("restoreDisplayModeNow") command
* fixed: small logic/quality bug in super-xbr chroma upscaling
* fixed: settings dialog always showed NNEDI3 chroma doubling to be enabled

super-xbr chroma upscaling is more than twice as fast as before with my AMD HD7770 now. It's now just moderately slower than JincAR. Just chroma upscaling got that much faster, though, not luma/chroma/image doubling.

Still looking for more FineSharp feedback. Seperately for image enhancements and upscaling refinement. Thanks.