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27th February 2014, 19:10 | #23941 | Link |
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madTPG Static Vs Dynamic Report:
i1 Display Pro, HCFR (continues measurement), 30% Grey Field from the AVS709HD, OD32 Static/Dynamic, Real 8-bit (no FRC) 4:4:4 AMVA display. In 8-6 bit there is no deviation down to the thousand number (0.00X), no difference here. Only in 5-bit and down I start to see the effect on the i1d3 (which might reflect what's happening beyond the thousandths decimal). With Dynamic the meter jumps ±50K in Temperature (XYZ changing). With Static the meter is more consistent. From this test I can conclude that Static gives a more stable results, without the meter being confused (this is in 5-bit and lower). Dynamic does not improve the measurement precision for i1D3 from what I've seen, just the opposite. If the lower bitdepth tests reflect what can happen at precision beyond thousandths (8-bit), then Static is the way to go. Unlike our eyes, The i1D3 meter likes a stable picture (not the smoother one) without noise in lower bitdepth, and probably in high bitdepth too, but HCFR show only down to thousandths. Static it is. Disclaimer: I'm not THE JUDGE, here or anywhere... This whole post is IMO & experience only.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 19:26. |
27th February 2014, 19:43 | #23942 | Link | |
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27th February 2014, 19:55 | #23943 | Link | |
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27th February 2014, 20:05 | #23944 | Link |
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Hello madshi!
I was tinkering around with encoding full range rgb UT Video to yuv444 h.264. And I kept getting results that looked a bit different. Tried using only ffmpeg, then using avisynth with x264. As it turns out it might be a renderer issue. Here's my source and one of my encoded files. People claimed it looks something that might be related to bt.601/bt.709 conversion. Here's what I got: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/64616 the color always got more orangish. Someone claimed that my encoded file looks properly so I made screenshots with Potplayer's EVR-CP where I got opposite results: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/64643 (plain EVR rendered most obviously wrong, too dark colors) So is this a renderer bug? Or something else? |
27th February 2014, 20:23 | #23945 | Link |
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Last time I tried I444 in 2012, it was working fine with madVR. Most likely something is wrong in your conversion chain.
Use Avisynth ConvertToYV24(matrix="rec709") and let x264 flag the stream corresponding. You also need a splitter like LAV that doesn't ignore the flags. |
27th February 2014, 20:24 | #23946 | Link | |
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Though, I don't think the i1D3 is made for heavy patterned textures, I think it expects more uniform texture. I've done some more testing, It appears that the i1D3 is very sensitive and fast reacting to change. The brighter the test image gets the faster the i1D3 reacts, so a highly dynamic image is definitely bad. The difference is minor at higher bit depths, but to eliminate any chance of error I suggest Static.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 20:37. |
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27th February 2014, 20:36 | #23947 | Link | |
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Did that. Used PC.709 instead, because wanted to keep full range too. Yet the results remained the same. You could check. I shared the source file and an encode. |
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27th February 2014, 20:49 | #23948 | Link |
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Unless something has changed, HCFR stores the XYZ & RGB values with millionths accuracy (6 decimal places).
Set the display mode to XYZ or RGB, highlight all cells (click upper left cell), open Edit menu -> copy, and then paste into a text editor. |
27th February 2014, 20:49 | #23949 | Link |
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I'm not sure if it's a bug, or just something that's being magnified by viewing in 3-bit, but I've been doing some comparisons and images seem to have a slight green tint to them when using Ordered Dither and colored noise.
This does not seem to be a problem with the error diffusion builds. |
27th February 2014, 20:54 | #23950 | Link | |
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Just flag the file as bt.601. Most likely then the orange tint will go away. Clear sign for a wrong colormatrix conversion. |
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27th February 2014, 20:57 | #23951 | Link | |
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But I don't think we should go deeper into it. Its simple really, The faster the sensor is, the more stable the displayed texture should be to minimize "capturing the wrong moment", to minimize the error possibility. IMO 8-bit Static does it best.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 21:03. |
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27th February 2014, 21:00 | #23952 | Link |
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It can but acts like depth adjuster
8bit loses the pop I guess. Tested on several movies. Maybe I'm seeing things but my kids confirmed it. Really any setting looks good just some better than others. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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27th February 2014, 21:09 | #23953 | Link |
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well this sucks...
I've been playing around with the madVR settings and have noticed that on my monitor, I cannot see a difference between 7 and 8 bits with dithering off. Dithering only makes a visual difference at 6-bit and below. Does this mean that my monitor is dithering internally? If so, is there any point in using madVR's dithering algorithms on this monitor? I can't see a difference between any of them at 7-bits(even None). |
27th February 2014, 21:09 | #23954 | Link | |
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The color differences don't happen here. Only encoding artifacts. So... I don't know... |
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27th February 2014, 21:14 | #23956 | Link |
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I don't exactly see why that probability would be larger with Dynamic rather than Static. It's just that in one case it depends only on the location and in the other also on the time. If your sensor is fast enough then (in theory) the best thing to do would be to take multiple measurements using Dynamic, from this you can calculate both the average value and the variance. If you use static then you've only got a very bad approximation of the average value.
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27th February 2014, 21:17 | #23957 | Link | |
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original | your encode (the frames don't match precisely, but that's because I'm too lazy to deal with your strange encode at whatever fps when the original file had 30 fps) |
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27th February 2014, 21:18 | #23958 | Link | ||
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Relax, I can't either, Most people can't. Undithered smooth test patterns are a whole different story. Quote:
Maybe you're right. You are very welcome to try to test and come to a conclusion. If what you posted is indeed the case, I'll be using Dynamic. We still don't know if ArgyllCMS takes several reads from the same patch and averages them. But, I wan't to see real results, because I'm really beginning to get tired of assumptions and placebo (my own included).
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 21:30. |
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27th February 2014, 21:27 | #23959 | Link |
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If you can only see a difference starting from 6-bits, then I would say your monitor is not only 6-bit but isn't doing any (temporal) dithering of its own. In that case, you should actually get more benefit out of madVR's dithering, so long as you set it to 6-bit mode so it actually affects the image you see. Of course, you might want to make sure there there's actually no difference at all - get up close to the screen on a still image and see if you can see a pattern in the pixels (it's easiest in dark areas). If you can, then dithering is working as expected, even if you don't notice it normally. If you can't see any effect at all then yes, you'll need to use a lower base bitdepth.
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Test patterns: Grayscale yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version), Multicolor yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version) |
27th February 2014, 21:33 | #23960 | Link |
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Ver Greeneyes,
I think its important to know if Mangix is using a test pattern or a movie before assuming his monitor is 6-bit. I too can hardly see the difference between 7 & 8 bit (None) with bluray content which is already properly dithered. 6-bit with Dithering, looks so good that I can use it without noticing the difference if its 8-bit or not.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 21:43. |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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