Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > (HD) DVD, Blu-ray & (S)VCD > (HD) DVD & Blu-ray authoring

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th March 2021, 08:54   #1  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
SOLVED - Authoring a working HD-DVD using DVDAuthor?

This is a question for the DVD specialists. It comes from the DVDStyler forum, and many users are interested in creating DVD menus (which DVDStyler does at high quality), but the videos should be HD. DVDStyler has an experimental HD feature which builds on the deprecated HD-DVD standard. The results of course do not play on hardware DVD players, but most player software and even hardware BD players can play them.

The problem is DVDAuthor. FFmpeg encodes and muxes just fine in HD, but DVDAuthor limits the size of the result to the DVD limit which means that a maximum of 9 VOB files at 1024 MB each is supported. DVDAuthor does not throw any error message if the result is bigger, but it will not continue playback once this limit is reached. The VOBs in the VIDEO_TS folder all play fine, even the ones with a higher number than 9. But for the IFOs these VOBs are out of range.

Quote:
The DVD standard defines a maximum bitrate of about 9000 kbps. This is not a limit of the MPEG2 format, it only applies to DVDs. The experimental HD capability of DVDStyler creates conversions which are not DVD compliant anyway, So it would be nice if it was possible to use much higher bitrates than the DVD compliant max bitrate. FFmpeg can do this just fine, but DVDAuthor cannot use bitrates which cause the result to get bigger than around 9 GB (nine VOB files of 1024 MB).
The question is if it is possible in theory to modify the IFO files so all VOBs will be within range. Or even to modify DVDAuthor to create such HD-DVD structures. I already tried IFOEdit, PgcEdit and VOBBlanker to see if I could do anything, but with my limited knowledge of the DVD internals I did not get anywhere.

Cheers
manolito

Last edited by manolito; 18th March 2021 at 09:32.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th March 2021, 17:23   #2  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 984
IIRC for HD-DVD the mux is in EVOs, accompanied by MAPs.
If the mentioned muxer can do that ? It is definitely not VOBs.

You may look at the output of multiAVCHD and compare.
It has a rudimentary muxer (hddvdmux.exe).
Ulead had a working authoring software, I even muxed a few projects for fun, playing them from folder.
No HD-DVD burner back then.
A few years later I found one, just to be able to cope if blank discs pop up.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're working on that issue. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th March 2021, 18:33   #3  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
AFAIK you are talking about Type 2 HD-DVD (advanced content). I want to use Type 1 (standard content). I found this (sorry, only in German):
Quote:
Type 1 (Standard Content – etwa: herkömmlicher Inhalt)
Type 1 ist eine Erweiterung des DVD-Videoformates. Die bekannten Strukturen werden großteils beibehalten. Die Unterschiede zu DVD-Video beschränken sich im Wesentlichen darauf, die Verwaltung der neuen Video- und Audiocodecs zu ermöglichen.
Type 2 (Advanced Content – etwa: erweiterter Inhalt)
Type 2 wurde definiert, um mehr Flexibilität im Vergleich zur DVD-Video-Navigationsstruktur zu gewährleisten.
Eine der wichtigsten Neuerungen im Advanced Content ist, dass nun nicht mehr alle Daten auf der DVD liegen müssen, sondern Teile (über die Angabe einer URL) aus dem Internet, einem Netzwerk, einer Festplatte o. a. geladen werden können.
Die flexiblere Navigationsstruktur zeigt sich dadurch, dass die Navigation nun nicht mehr über „Program Chains“ und „Navigation Commands“ geregelt wird. Stattdessen befinden sich auf der HD DVD ECMA-Script-Applikationen, welche über eine spezielle API (HDi Advanced Application) u. a. den Player steuern, auf Tastendruck reagieren, Menüs zeichnen oder Untertitel einblenden.
So if I understand it correctly the Type 1 variation of HD-DVD should still use pretty much the old DVD structure with IFOs and VOBs.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2021, 01:21   #4  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 984
Well, I haven't seen any HD-DVD using .VOBs on HD content.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD#File_systems suggests .EVO globally, no matter if Standard or Advanved.
Quote:
Type 1...Die bekannten Strukturen werden großteils beibehalten. Die Unterschiede zu DVD-Video beschränken sich im Wesentlichen darauf, die Verwaltung der neuen Video- und Audiocodecs zu ermöglichen.
That seems rather a personal opinion, maybe taken from 2006 tabloids.
What if the writer might not have looked up a real HD-DVD disc in explorer...
The one HD-DVD + DVD hybrid disc I have (Digital Video Essentials PAL) has both .EVO and .VOB,
of course each on its appropriate disc side.

Well, FWIW I just found back Eugenia's Rants and Thoughts about 3xHD-DVD from 2008,
seemed to work back then. You might just want to follow these.
If you goal is to burn such DVD-R to play it on a Toshiba Standalone that might work.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're working on that issue. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."

Last edited by Emulgator; 14th March 2021 at 01:41.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2021, 08:27   #5  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
That seems rather a personal opinion, maybe taken from 2006 tabloids.
What if the writer might not have looked up a real HD-DVD disc in explorer...
Well, it's not from tabloids, it can be found here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
https://dewiki.de/Lexikon/HD_DVD
http://www.aktedvd.de/php/page/view_...on&entry=hddvd

Thanks for the link to Eugenia's page about making 3xHD-DVDs. This is identical to what DVDStyler tries to do, it also uses DVDAuthor to create the final structure.

If DVDStyler's automatic bitrate calculation is used then you can only create a structure which fits on a DVD-9, and the max bitrate can never be higher than 9000 kbps. What I am trying to do is to overcome this bitrate restriction so Full HD content at max average bitrates of 27000 kbps can be created. And this is where DVDAuthor gets in the way...

There is no problem if the Full HD content is very short. A 42 minute clip will work nicely at this bitrate. But if the clip is only slightly longer, 9 VOBs within the VTS will not be enough. DVDAuthor happily creates all the VOBs which are needed for the content, even a VOB #20 will play when opened in a software player. But for the IFOs which DVDAuthor creates these VOBs are out of range. Playback will just stop when this size limit is reached.

So for a clip with 4 hours duration this limit is reached at a bitrate of only 10000 kbps, and this is awfully low for a Full HD frame size. It will look pretty good with Half HD resolution, though. My hope was that there is a way to patch the IFOs so the size limit can be overcome. But it looks like this is a hopeless case...

Last edited by manolito; 14th March 2021 at 11:07.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2021, 15:44   #6  |  Link
Richard1485
AviSynth monkey
 
Richard1485's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolito View Post
The question is if it is possible in theory to modify the IFO files so all VOBs will be within range. Or even to modify DVDAuthor to create such HD-DVD structures. I already tried IFOEdit, PgcEdit and VOBBlanker to see if I could do anything, but with my limited knowledge of the DVD internals I did not get anywhere.
Was this the method that you followed? It seems that what you are trying to do should be possible. It reminds me of trying to join multiple DVDs years ago ... like this. I don't know if HD DVD has the same restrictions as DVD when it comes to VOBs. Like Emulgator, the only HD content I've seen on HD DVD has been in EVOs.
Richard1485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 09:35   #7  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
No, I am not trying to join several already authored DVD structures to one single DVD. I just want to play the HD DVDs created by DVDAuthor with fully working menus on software players or streaming boxes or USB input of modern TV sets.

This is a typical DVD structure with HD video which is created by DVDAuthor:



The last two VOBs play nicely when you load them into a software player. But if you play the whole DVD by clicking VIDEO_TS.IFO these last two VOBs will be cut off because the standard DVD size limit has been reached. Everything after VTS_01_9.VOB will be cut off, and I am looking for a way to fix this...
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 11:39   #8  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
Registered User
 
SeeMoreDigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Notts, UK
Posts: 11,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1485 View Post
Like Emulgator, the only HD content I've seen on HD DVD has been in EVOs.
Agreed...

I had a few dozen HD DVD discs back in the day, along with a (2007) Toshiba HD-EP35KB to play them. Followed by an (2008) LG GGC-H20L ROM drive to back the discs up using EVOdemux.

Sadly, the last time I attempted to play my remaining HD DVD discs none of them worked correctly due to de-lamination
__________________
| I've been testing hardware media playback devices and software A/V encoders and decoders since 2001 | My Network Layout & A/V Gear |

Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 15th March 2021 at 11:41.
SeeMoreDigital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 13:04   #9  |  Link
Richard1485
AviSynth monkey
 
Richard1485's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolito View Post
No, I am not trying to join several already authored DVD structures to one single DVD.
Nor did I say that you were. What you are doing reminds me of that process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manolito View Post
Everything after VTS_01_9.VOB will be cut off, and I am looking for a way to fix this...
That's understood. Did you try adapting this method to fit your scenario? You have a bunch of out-of-range VOBs that need to be in the same Title-Set (or whatever) to ensure that they are played back, which strikes me as a similar problem.
Richard1485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 14:22   #10  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
Registered User
 
SeeMoreDigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Notts, UK
Posts: 11,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolito View Post
No, I am not trying to join several already authored DVD structures to one single DVD. I just want to play the HD DVDs created by DVDAuthor with fully working menus on software players or streaming boxes or USB input of modern TV sets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1485 View Post
That's understood. Did you try adapting this method to fit your scenario? You have a bunch of out-of-range VOBs that need to be in the same Title-Set (or whatever) to ensure that they are played back, which strikes me as a similar problem.
This is one of the reasons why the DVD formats '1 GB' max .vob file structure was not adopted for the HD DVD format.

By contrast, the HD DVD formats .evo file sizes are not limited. Indeed, they can be the entire size of the movie!
__________________
| I've been testing hardware media playback devices and software A/V encoders and decoders since 2001 | My Network Layout & A/V Gear |
SeeMoreDigital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 15:15   #11  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
This is one of the reasons why the DVD formats '1 GB' max .vob file structure was not adopted for the HD DVD format.

By contrast, the HD DVD formats .evo file sizes are not limited. Indeed, they can be the entire size of the movie!
Yes, I understand that. But this won't help users who want to employ elaborate menus which they created with DVDStyler. So far there are no free HD authoring solutions with menu support (except for very basic template based menus), and what most folks at the DVDStyler forum said after I recommended MultiAVCHD to them was that they very much preferred the DVDStyler way to create menus.

Last edited by manolito; 15th March 2021 at 15:17.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 19:35   #12  |  Link
Sir Didymus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Italy
Posts: 954
Hi Manolito! It is long time since we discuss on these types of "old fashion" issues! :-)

You (or better, DvdAuthor) is hitting a very high level constraint of the "Application Layer" in the DVD specifications...

In the picture you are showing it is clear that the whole DVD is organised into a single title set (VTS_01).

The specs report that one VTS must include:
- 1 file for the IFO,
- 1 file for backup of the IFO (the BUP file),
- 0 or 1 files (of maximum 1GB) for the menus, and
- 1 to 9 files of VOBS for the titles (1 to 99 titles).

I am not surprised that the files exceeding the 9th are simply discarded by the player!

Solution: you may want to try to instruct the authoring application (DvdAuthor) to reorganize this "odd" structure in order to produce two (or more) VTS, by splitting the title(s?) of the VTS_1 into two or more VTS...
Sir Didymus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 19:57   #13  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
Hi Sir Didymus,

it feels so good to hear from you after such a long time. Brings back a lot of old memories about DVDtoSVCD and the implementation of BatchMux... I sure hope that you are doing fine during these disturbing times.

Quote:
Solution: you may want to try to instruct the authoring application (DvdAuthor) to reorganize this "odd" structure in order to produce two (or more) VTS, by splitting the title(s?) of the VTS_1 into two or more VTS...
Of course I did try this approach already. I used two titles with a total duration of more than 45 minutes. I converted them to Full HD at an average bitrate of 27000 kbps. I instructed DVDStyler to use a separate title set for each source file. So in the two separate VTS sections both had less than 9 VOBs. But it did not help. The first title played normally, but for the second title the playback stalled at the very same point where it would have stalled if both titles had been in just one VTS. DVDAuthor shows no mercy... It looks like there is a hard size limit for authoring a DVD, no matter how many separate VTS are used.

Cheers
manolito

Last edited by manolito; 15th March 2021 at 20:05.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2021, 23:33   #14  |  Link
Sir Didymus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Italy
Posts: 954
Yes, thank you! I hope the same for you too... :-)

Well, if you have a structure where the above constaint is obeyed (of the 9 files max per the VOBS for the individual titles), then you may want to try to open this structure with PgcEdit - the great application written by r0lZ- and to see what it reports. This genial "swiss knife" application is able to handle all sort of issues in the ifos... You have to do nothing special, just open the structure, see what it says and save. It deserves to try...

By the way, if I remind well, PgcEdit is already capable of importing some titlesets from one DVD into the structure of another DVD, handling perfectly the resulting structures even when these are bigger than 9GB. So the limit shouldn't be this one of the total size of the DVD... If I remind well, of course...

Last edited by Sir Didymus; 15th March 2021 at 23:49.
Sir Didymus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 10:59   #15  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 984
When it comes to VOB count there is only provision for an index of 1 decimal digit length.
IIRC the 1GiB VOB limit was only imposed to keep up with certain file system restrictions (was it mapping into old style ISO?)
that IIRC don't have to be adhered to anymore if played under modern file system drivers.

Manolito, maybe you can try to pre-concatenate those .VOBs to >1GiB to keep their number below or equal 9 ?
Binary concatenation is all the filesystem does anyway while mounting any group of _1.to _9.VOBs.
I remember back in 2004..2009 to have de/remuxed a few times into a 5GiB..8GiB "mono"-VOB by chance,
but the race conditions are forgotten now, I think I have burnt that to DVD-RW once and it played on a standalone.
I think it was SmartRipper which has that feature.

Playback stalling at a certain point: could that be a muxer overflow ?
(Back in the DVDlabPro2 days I helped trace such a design flaw, maybe ~ version DLP 2.23 IIRC
I guessed that moonman had implemented a 32bit register there and noone would have run into any problems
if not crossing an unknown border by trying to mux 4hr movies onto 8,5GB DVD+R DL.
Because of the DVD's 1/90.000 time stamp granularity one would need 33bits of register width if duration exceeded 3h20min.
Blu-ray overcame this odd width by halving that temporal resolution down to 45.000 ticks/s.)
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're working on that issue. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."

Last edited by Emulgator; 16th March 2021 at 13:57.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 21:24   #16  |  Link
Richard1485
AviSynth monkey
 
Richard1485's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Playback stalling at a certain point: could that be a muxer overflow ?
It could be a muxer overflow, but I suspect that it's a limit of some kind in the navigation packs. Using this method, I combined the VOBs from two DVDs, making sure to check the VOB ID in the last nav pack of disc1 and set the VOB ID for the first VOB in disc2 accordingly. IfoEdit will merrily make IFOs for the combined output (16 VOBs), and the runtime is correct for the combined output (over eight hours), but the video consistently stalls at the disc1-disc2 transition point. MPV gives the following error:

Quote:
[ifo_dvdnav] Error getting next block from DVD 1 (Expected NAV packet but none found.)
I tried combining different discs, and the same error occurs. Get VTS sectors doesn't make a difference.

Last edited by Richard1485; 16th March 2021 at 21:30.
Richard1485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2021, 21:57   #17  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
Registered User
 
SeeMoreDigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Notts, UK
Posts: 11,804
Out of interest...

Approximately how many minutes of (1920x1080) HD video are you looking to fit onto a regular single-layered and/or dual-layered DVD?
__________________
| I've been testing hardware media playback devices and software A/V encoders and decoders since 2001 | My Network Layout & A/V Gear |
SeeMoreDigital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 08:48   #18  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
Out of interest...

Approximately how many minutes of (1920x1080) HD video are you looking to fit onto a regular single-layered and/or dual-layered DVD?
Burning the HD result to a DVD blank is not the intended use of this project at all. In the DVDStyler forum there were frequent user requests to support HD frame sizes for the output while retaining all the elaborate menu creation features.

The author of DVDStyler implemented this feature by adding HD resolutions to the encoder params, and FFmpeg encodes and muxes these frame sizes. But all the rest stays within the DVD limitations (like allowed average and max bitrates plus all the authoring limitations). The max output size is DVD-9, the max bitrates are identical to the DVD bitrates, just the frame size is bigger. There is no limit for the clip duration, but the results of course look not too good using such low bitrates.

I am now trying to overcome the DVD bitrate limits and use up to 27000 kbps for Full HD. Since HW DVD players won't play HD anyways there is no need to burn the results. Software players and streaming devices play these hacked DVD structures nicely. If only DVDAuthor could author such VIDEO_TS folders without cutting off content...
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 13:02   #19  |  Link
manolito
Registered User
 
manolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Manolito, maybe you can try to pre-concatenate those .VOBs to >1GiB to keep their number below or equal 9 ?
Binary concatenation is all the filesystem does anyway while mounting any group of _1.to _9.VOBs.
BIG SUCCESS...

This suggestion does exactly what I was after. My current test:

I used a 2hour 5min project with 4 source clips. Full HD at an average bitrate of 27000 kbps and a max bitrate of 28000 kbps (wanted to preserve a little headroom compared to the HD-DVD specs because ffmpeg tends to overshoot the specified bitrates). Very basic VMG menu which just lets me select the clip I want to play.

Result came out at 25 VOBs, size about 24 GB. I used a binary file joiner to concatenate the VOBs so I had only 9 VOBs after joining. It also worked when joining all the 25 VOBs to just one.

The resulting 3xHD-DVD Structure worked perfectly in MPC-HC and in VLC. The menu did what it was supposed to do, even the chapters were preserved accurately. Quality was excellent, the average quantizer was below 4. And there was no need to use PgcEdit or VOBBlanker to repair the structure or fix the IFOs.

In this test I used only 1 VTS for all the 4 titles. This is alright because for HD output you only want to use an AR of 16:9. Just now I am running a second test conversion where only 1 title per VTS is used. Of course I will also have to concatenate the VOBs in every VTS which has more than 9 VOBs. I am quite confident that this will work, too.


So it looks like this poor man's method to create high quality HD results with elaborate menus has been established now. Big thanks to Emulgator and Sir Didymus for your very helpful suggestions...


Cheers
manolito


//EDIT//
Yes, like I expected using only 1 title per VTS works well, too. Just make sure that no VTS holds more than 9 VOBs, if it does you need to concatenate the VOBs so a maximum of 9 VOBs is present.
Another thing I tried does not work, at least not with my hardware. I tried to convert the 3xHD-DVD structure to a BD structure using DVDtoBD Express. No errors, but the resulting BDMV folder would not play correctly, neither under MCP-HC or VLC, and my old Xtreamer streaming box also had problems. None of these players could play the menu which DVDStyler had created and which was then converted by DVDtoBD Express. I suspect that DVDtoBD Express is to blame, but there might be other reasons.

Last edited by manolito; 17th March 2021 at 19:32.
manolito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 19:14   #20  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 984
Nice to hear that !
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're working on that issue. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.