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Old 10th November 2017, 16:36   #1281  |  Link
konikpolny
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I've searched the web for the text formatting options of the SRT format. According to Wikipedia (as well as other sites like this one), ONLY the basic formatting options bold, italic, underline and color are supported.
Sorry, I always thought that the font change tag is standard in SRT. If it is not, and as it seems only MPC-HC will read it, there is not much reason for the SRTtoASS3D tool to support.
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Old 10th November 2017, 17:16   #1282  |  Link
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Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
The the color restore replacing the literal color with {/c} works only for one liners. It doesn't work when the color is over 2 lines (or more I guess)
Oops, yes, it might disappear if the color change is on the first line and the restore it is on the second line. It's because I try to remove the {/c} when it is useless, but I suppose that it is better to keep it anyway. After all, {/c} will just do nothing if it doesn't follow a color change, and it should not hurt.

I'll fix that in the final version...
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Sorry, I always thought that the font change tag is standard in SRT. If it is not, and as it seems only MPC-HC will read it, there is not much reason for the SRTtoASS3D tool to support.
No worries. For me, it's much more simple to not implement it, as otherwise big 3D problems can arrise with large font faces.
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Old 10th November 2017, 17:29   #1283  |  Link
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SRT is obviously a basic subs format. I think that originally it was meant to have only basic formatting and in time developers considered it could also support font change as well. It's just there is nobody to care about writing an updated spec . So it's up to the player whether to implement the font change tag or not. I just tried PotPlayer and just as MPC-HC it respects font change in SRT and displays the change correctly. It seems that both players consider font change tag an important addition and a tag worth having for SRT format. .
I don't know about any other 'unusual' tags like font size (I've never seen it) but it seems that positioning, even though mentioned in the SRT specs there, is not supported by MPC-HC or PotPlayer.

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Old 10th November 2017, 17:40   #1284  |  Link
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Of course, when there are TWO sentences displayed at different X positions AT THE SAME TIME on screen, they form a SINGLE subtitle, the box contains the two sentences, and it is impossible for SRTtoASS3D to know that the first subtitle is, say, on the top left and the second on the bottom right side of the box
This is exactly what I meant.
Anyways, I will have more tests for positioning with the 2Dxml guides in my future projects, now that I understand it.
Thanks
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Old 10th November 2017, 17:51   #1285  |  Link
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Talking about subtitles, as regards pic based subtitles they are kind of too big for my use and I've always wondered if the players can reduce their size. Do you know if any players provide control over the size of the sup or idx/sub format subtitles? I haven't been able to find ...
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Old 10th November 2017, 23:21   #1286  |  Link
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No. Normally, the size of the graphics subtitles is determined by the author, and cannot be changed. It's a important advantage for the 3D subtitles, as otherwise, if the player shrinks (or expands) them, the offset between the two views will change, and therefore the subtitles will appear at the wrong depth. That can and certainly will ruin the 3D experience.

Of course, the problem is different for 2D subtitles, and it may be more pleasant to reduce them somewhat, especially if the movie is played on a computer. You can of course demux them, use the scale feature of BDSup2Sub, and remux the modified subtitle in the MKV, but AFAIK you cannot do that on the fly. And of course, I don't recommend to do it with the 3D subtitles.
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Old 11th November 2017, 00:27   #1287  |  Link
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Thanks for the info. True about 3D pic subtitles
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:19   #1288  |  Link
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Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
I just tried PotPlayer and just as MPC-HC it respects font change in SRT and displays the change correctly.
I use PotPlayer often, especially to watch the 3D movies on my PC. It is very good, but it doesn't support the ASS subtitles well, and especially the 3D subtitles produced by SRTtoASS3D. The problem is that for a 3D movie, two subtitles must be displayed at the same time. And PotPlayer is unable to do that. It shows only one of the two subtitles. Of course, the effect is very bad, even worse than 2D subtitles. It's a pity, as otherwise, PotPlayer is very good. MPC-HD does a better job for the 3D ASS subtitles, but doesn't support the 3D movies well.

I have replaced the SRTtoASS2D.tcl script with a new version that fixes the problem of the </FONT>. Now, </FONT> is replaced anyway with {\\c}, even if it follows a font change that has been removed. That means that a subtitle can contain an useless {\\c} if it follows a font face change that has been removed. It should not hurt, and given the fact that the font face changes are not officially supported by the SubRip specs, and extremely rarely used, you should normally never see an useless {\\c}.

I haven't changed the version number (still 0.5) since the previous beta has never been released officially, but this version is dated November 11, 2017. It should be the version that will be distributed with the next version of BD3D2MK3D.
Download: SRTtoASS3D.tcl

As a conclusion for the whole discussion about the formatting options of the SubRip/SRT format, I suggest to use ONLY ASS (or SSA) subtitles if the formatting and font changes matter. After all, all video players sophisticated enough to respect complex formatting options are certainly able to support the ASS format, and therefore I see no advantage in using the old, deprecated SRT format. And if, per chance, you want to use a SRT containing complex formatting like font changes, I suggest to use AegiSub to convert it to the more powerful ASS format. SRTtoASS3D is only a basic tool to convert true SRT files to ASS 3D, and it does it well as long as the SRT respects the limitations of the format.
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Old 12th November 2017, 07:20   #1289  |  Link
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The problem is that for a 3D movie, two subtitles must be displayed at the same time.
I just don't understand it. Why does it require to display two subtitles if the player can display it properly with 3d depth? What's the exact case of yours for 3d playback? mkv3d + srt? or Half-SBS 3D?
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:02   #1290  |  Link
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In a 3D BD, the video format is AVC+MVC. The subtitle stream for a specific language contains only one subtitle, and the MVC video stream contains the information necessary to control the depth of the subtitles in real time. That information is stored in Offset Sequences (the so called 3D-Planes), and BD3D2MK3D extracts it and store it in .OFS files during the creation of the project.

Unfortunately, when the movie is re-encoded in another 3D format (Full or Half SBS or T&B or frame sequential) the MVC stream is lost, and of course the offset sequences are lost too. Furthermore, as far as I know, no player is able to directly use the OFS files to mimic the behaviour of a real BD3D player.

To be able to display the subtitles in 3D with the correct depth, it is therefore necessary to build a single stream of subtitles with the two "views" of the subtitle. It's what BD3D2MK3D does when it converts the subtitles to 3D. For example, for a subtitle shown at a specific timing in Half-SBS, it takes in the corresponding OFS file the offset to apply at that timing, and then it duplicates the image of the subtitle, and combine them side by side with the right offset. The combined image is then resized. (Its width is divided by 2 for Half-SBS.) That operation is repeated for all subtitles in the stream with different offsets for all subtitles. Finally, the whole subtitle stream is re-created with the new images, to obtain the final Half-SBS subtitle stream.

Indeed, when working with graphic subtitles like the BD sups, the two streams are combined to form a single stream with double images, exactly like the two video streams are combined to form a single SBS stream. But things are somewhat different when the subtitle stream is text based. When a SRT stream is converted to 3D, there is no way to combine the two views of the same sentence in the same image, since the stream is not image based. Therefore, it is necessary to place the text for the left eye at a specific position on the screen, and the text for the right eye at another position. Since with the ASS format, it is not possible to specify that a part of the text must be shown at a specific position and the rest of the same text at another, it is necessary to split the stereoscopic subtitle in two parts: one for each eye. Each part has different X positions (for SBS), as you can see in this extract of an ASS stream produced by BD3D2MK3D:
Code:
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.10,0:04:28.51,Default,,8,968,8,,{\pos(481,867)}Regardez, des étoiles filantes.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.10,0:04:28.51,Default,,968,8,8,,{\pos(1439,867)}Regardez, des étoiles filantes.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.14,0:04:30.76,Default,,8,968,8,,{\pos(479,868)}Vite, vite, faites un vœu.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.14,0:04:30.76,Default,,968,8,8,,{\pos(1437,868)}Vite, vite, faites un vœu.
The ASS format specifies that several subtitles can be displayed at the same time, so it's normally not a problem, but obviously, some players do not implement that possibility, and of course, if only one subtitle is displayed, it is not possible to see the subtitle at the right depth, and the effect is terrible, since the subtitle is seen by one eye only ! (The SRT format cannot show two subtitles at the same time, and anyway, there is no possibility really implemented to force a subtitle to be printed at a specific position. It's why it is necessary to convert SRT to ASS to obtain 3D subtitles.)

Of course, the problem affects only the 3D subtitles in ASS (text) format. As explained above, the graphics subtitles converted directly to 3D from the BD are not affected. Luckily, the 3D movies in 3DBD must have their subtitles in BD SUP (graphics) format, and the problem concerns therefore only the peoples who want to convert SRT files downloaded from the internet to 3D ASS.

I don't use the MKV3D format produced by MakeMKV, but in that case, the video is not re-encoded, and therefore is still in AVC+MVC format. That means that the offset sequence are still present in the AVC, and of course, if is theoretically possible for a good 3D player to use them to display ANY KIND of subtitle at the right depth, including SRT files. I don't know if Stereoscopic Player can already do that, but anyway, that MKV3D format is very specific, not supported by any standalone player, and IMO, due to its large file size, not suitable for other things than archiving of your original BDs.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:46   #1291  |  Link
konikpolny
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for a 3D movie, two subtitles must be displayed at the same time. And PotPlayer is unable to do that
my PotPlayer displays both 3D lines correctly for the ASS subtitles.

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the problem concerns therefore only the peoples who want to convert SRT files downloaded from the internet to 3D ASS.
This may be an off the subject note now, but, I use the SRT2ASS3D conversion for the SRTs OCRed by myself from the BD3D2MK3D project subtitles streams, not the internet.

And as far as the Font Face change is concerned I obviously have to add this information by hand and it is much easier to change the font face in a single subs line (SRT) rather than in 2 as in ASS subs and then do the conversion. However rarely I have done it. I did it when I wanted to get the same effect as in the orginal BD3D where for some subtitles the color change went along with a Font change.
However old and simple the SRT format is, it is the most widely used. Here it is a great format for achieving good quality text 3D ASS subtitles.
If I have time I may look in the code of SRTtoASS3D.tcl and modify it according to my needs.
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:00   #1292  |  Link
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I've just verified, and indeed, PotPlayer is now able to show the two subtitles of a 3D ASS stream correctly. An old bug has been fixed. Yet another good point for that excellent player (IMO the best).

If you use PotPlayer and the original subtitles from the BD, why do you convert them to ASS 3D ? PotPlayer can show the 3D SUP streams without problem. Is it because you encode in Full-SBS (or Full-T&B or Frame Sequential) ?

Also, if you keep only a single audio and a single subtitle stream and you need the subtitles anyway, I suggest to use the option to hardcode (burn) the 3D subtitles in the movie itself. That works with all players, and with all 3D formats ! :-)
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Old 13th November 2017, 01:11   #1293  |  Link
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There are 4 reasons why I prefer the ASS 3D subtitles to the graphic ones:
1) I do indeed encode full-SBS,
2) As I said earlier the graphic subs are a bit too big for my use. (But I will try resizing with the BDSup2Sub+remux and see how that works for me. I know this will work even for full-SBS 3D in at least MPC-HC ).
3) In general I prefer having text than graphic even if it takes a bit more work to get (I have good regexes to fix OCR errors )
4) I am a bit crazy but I like having control on how subtitles look, like colour and font .

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I suggest to use the option to hardcode (burn) the 3D subtitles in the movie itself.
I think this is the worst thing that one can do ever. It damages and injures the movie irretrievably and forever leaving the user with no choice but to accept a decision once made. I am strongly against it! Also, I am outraged when an original BD burns in the forced english subtitles on all available playlists / video streams as if everybody just wanted to use the english subtitles! This is horrible.

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Old 13th November 2017, 09:14   #1294  |  Link
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Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
I think this is the worst thing that one can do ever. It damages and injures the movie irretrievably and forever leaving the user with no choice but to accept a decision once made. I am strongly against it! Also, I am outraged when an original BD burns in the forced english subtitles on all available playlists / video streams as if everybody just wanted to use the english subtitles! This is horrible.
I agree that forced subtitles burned by the author of the movie or by the author of the BD are terrible, because you don't have the choice of your preferred language any more. But if it is YOU who burns the subtitles YOU have decided to watch anyway, things are totally different.

Like you, I prefer to leave the movie "fresh", without subtitles, and I just want to turn them on when I need them. But if that works perfectly for 2D movies, things are different for 3D movies, especially if you want to play them with a specific standalone player, such as a 3D TV. Usually, there is no way to display correctly the 3D subtitles with hardware players. (My Samsung TV, for example, can only display 2D SRT files NOT inside the MKV container! It is totally prehistoric!) Therefore you have to support the 2D subtitles (and that's the most horrible thing you can imagine) or just watch the movie without any subtitle at all (and that's not a solution if you don't know at all the original language).

The big benefit of burning the 3D subtitles is that the movie will be watchable with all kind of 3D equipment, including any 3D TV with bad subtitle support. Therefore, I burn the subtitles when the movie doesn't have a sound track I can understand and it has a good 3D subtitle track in French or English. In that case, I have to turn the subtitles on anyway, so why not burn them, and avoid all possible player related problems? IMO, it's certainly the best solution.
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Old 13th November 2017, 16:01   #1295  |  Link
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therefore is still in AVC+MVC format. That means that the offset sequence are still present in the AVC, and of course, if is theoretically possible for a good 3D player to use them to display ANY KIND of subtitle at the right depth, including SRT files.
It works well with Potplayer. I tried with ISO backup of blueray + srt.
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Old 13th November 2017, 17:37   #1296  |  Link
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An ISO of a BD is not a 3D MKV produced by MakeMKV. The player expects the 3D offsets in a 3D BD, not necessarily in a MKV (where it doesn't normally expect the MVC stream at all).

But anyway, the info is interesting. I did not know that. Being able to show external SRT with the 3D offsets that have not been created specifically for that subtitle track is a very good point for PotPlayer (although I suspects that the 3D is not always perfect, because the SRT subtitles are not always at the right place on screen). Thanks for the info!
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Old 14th November 2017, 00:45   #1297  |  Link
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I tried again with 3D MKV by MakeMKV + SRT and it seems to work too. Probably with blu-ray folder (didn't test) if the 3d depth is coming from MVC streams.

One tip for opening blu-ray folder + srt subtitles.

D:\movies\example
D:\movies\example\BDMV
D:\movies\example\CERTIFICATE

Assuming that there is blu-ray folder named example, Potplayer will open the following srt files automatically with Open Folder menu (F2) or drag-and-dropping the blu-ray folder (example) to the player.

1. D:\movies\example\BDMV\bdmv.srt
2. D:\movies\example\example.srt
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:27   #1298  |  Link
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Great info again. But I wonder how PotPlayer selects the offset sequence to use, since an external SRT is not associated with a specific 3D-plane. I know that the first plane is often pure garbage (containing only null bytes, or a constant depth) and it is somewhat difficult for an human to choose within the available planes the best one for a specific SRT or language. I don't think that PotPlayer can do an analysis of the available planes to reject the ones that are obviously not suitable for the given SRT file, as that would require much time. Also, the first non-null 3D-Plane is usually made for the subtitle in the original language of the movie, and has therefore usually no 3D values for the forced subtitles of the other languages, and is therefore not really suitable either. So, does it take the next available plane, blindly? Or can it use several planes, and automatically switch to another plane if a specific subtitle has only a null 3D value in the default plane?

I don't have a 3D graphic card, so I can't test, but if you can figure out how PotPlayer selects and handle the 3D-plane for the external SRT files, please let us know.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:10   #1299  |  Link
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I don't know the technical details but it seems to get the info from mvc streams on the fly. There is one more thing from the latest beta version. I contacted the developer of the player to adjust the relative pixels to 3d depth for text subtitles and it seems to be implemented.


ps. Actually, I made a feature request to use OFS file with text subtitles for re-encoded 3d videos as it looks possible and rather easy compared to get the info from mvc streams. However, failed to make him understand. If the OFS info were merged in mkv container, it would be more practical and accessible information.

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Old 14th November 2017, 15:17   #1300  |  Link
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... to adjust the relative pixels to 3d depth ...
What do you mean? It it to add the possibility to globally move all subtitles a bit more toward the spectator or behind the screen?

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If the OFS info were merged in mkv container, it would be more practical and accessible information.
I agree. It's why BD3D2MK3D includes the OFS files in a ZIP archive in the final MKV, just in case...

Perhaps you should try again to explain the idea to the developer, or direct him to this thread. It would be indeed a nice addition to PotPlayer if he could support the 3D depth from external or muxed OFS files. At least, it will be possible to play SBS or T&B files with SRT subtitles and the (more or less) correct depth.
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