BD Rebuilder 3D Blu Ray

[colinhunt]

Originally Posted by KarstenS

When the time is there, that there is progress on copying 3D streams as 3D streams, I will be able to test ist. Have bought "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs" as 3D BD. 3D TV is also at home and TMT3 with the 3D plugin is installed too (not tested yet, that it really works as it should).

You mean you would play "Cloudy" 3D on the PC which is connected to a 3D HDTV? That won't work, unfortunately. On the PC, 3D playback is "time-sequential" 120fps (a.k.a. page flip) which 3D HDTVs are unable to process. A stand-alone Blu-ray 3D player outputs "frame packed" 1920x2205@24p which is the HDMI 1.4 approved standard for 3D. In other words, 3D on the PC and 3D on stand-alone 3D players are very different and not compatible with each other.

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by colinhunt

You mean you would play "Cloudy" 3D on the PC which is connected to a 3D HDTV? That won't work, unfortunately. On the PC, 3D playback is "time-sequential" 120fps (a.k.a. page flip) which 3D HDTVs are unable to process. A stand-alone Blu-ray 3D player outputs "frame packed" 1920x2205@24p which is the HDMI 1.4 approved standard for 3D. In other words, 3D on the PC and 3D on stand-alone 3D players are very different and not compatible with each other.

Look at this screenshot:



Source

Please inform about 3DTV. My Samsung LE40C750 uses for 3D 120Hz frame sequential output with shutter glasses, like all other 3DTVs that actually get sold.

EDIT: Please also read HDMI 1.4 specs. It supports more than one way for 3D transport:

"Field Alternative, Frame Alternative, Line Alternative, Side-by-side half/full, L + Depth, L + Depth + Graphics + Graphics Depth"

Source

And by the way, my TV has support for "Field Alternative, Frame Alternative, Line Alternative, Side-by-side" and maybe the last things too. But I don't know what this is.

[colinhunt]

Originally Posted by KarstenS

Look at this screenshot

Under the image on Arcsoft's website:

PageFlip – Select this mode if your display is a Frame Sequential NVIDIA 3D Vision 120Hz (or higher) display, AMD Quad Buffer Stereo monitor, or HDMI 1.4 3DTV*. This type of display normally works with active (battery-powered) shutter glasses.

The * points to this sentence: "Compatible graphics driver is required." Have you heard of Nvidia's 3DTV PLAY? It's a software application created for making PCs compatible with HDMI 1.4 3D HDTVs. Why would Nvidia bother making such a software if 3D HDTVs support PC's 120fps pageflipping configuration?

My Samsung LE40C750 uses for 3D 120Hz frame sequential output with shutter glasses, like all other 3DTVs that actually get sold.

By "output" you mean it displays 120 frames per second? Yeah, it does. And so do the others. But this is not about "output", this is about input. HDMI 1.4 spec does not support full 1920x1080 resolution input at 120fps, which is what PC page flipping is. I also think different versions of HDMI might be a problem, as the PC is only 1.3.

Please also read HDMI 1.4 specs. It supports more than one way for 3D transport

I have the HDMI 1.4a spec in front of me, and yes, it specifies many transport methods. But most of them are not mandatory, so 3D HDTVs don't have to support them. These are mandatory:

An HDMI Sink which supports at least one 59.94 / 60Hz 2D video format shall support all of:
- 1920x1080p @ 23.98 / 24Hz Frame packing
- 1280x720p @ 59.94 / 60Hz Frame packing
- 1920x1080i @ 59.94 / 60Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
- 1920x1080p @ 23.98 / 24Hz Top-and-Bottom
- 1280x720p @ 59.94 / 60Hz Top-and-Bottom

An HDMI Sink which supports at least one 50Hz 2D video format shall support all of:
- 1920x1080p @ 23.98 / 24Hz Frame packing
- 1280x720p @ 50Hz Frame packing
- 1920x1080i @ 50Hz Side-by-Side (Half)
- 1920x1080p @ 23.98 / 24Hz Top-and-Bottom
- 1280x720p @ 50Hz Top-and-Bottom

In the timings list the closest to pageflipping is either 1920x1080i120 or 1920x1080p120 Side-by-Side or Top-and-Bottom only. However, 1920x1080i120 is interlaced and the latter one is either half the horizontal resolution (Side-by-Side) or half the vertical resolution (Top-and-Bottom). Both are also listed under Secondary 3D Video Format Timings, not under Primary timings.

One more thing: In YouTube there's a 7-part video demonstration about Cineform's new Neo3D plug-in for Adobe Premiere CS5. In one of the videos the user chooses to output 3D from the PC to a Panasonic Viera 3D TV - but he has to select Side-by-Side configuration for it to work. That means 960x1080 resolution for each eye instead of Blu-ray 3D's 1920x1080 for each eye.

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by colinhunt

The * points to this sentence: "Compatible graphics driver is required." Have you heard of Nvidia's 3DTV PLAY? It's a software application created for making PCs compatible with HDMI 1.4 3D HDTVs. Why would Nvidia bother making such a software if 3D HDTVs support PC's 120fps pageflipping configuration?

The reason for this software of nvidia is: money.

When using a 3D TV you don't have to buy the whole 3D Vision stuff. So they decided to make 3D TV support as a software you have to pay for. With 3DTV Play you not only get support for Blu-Ray 3D. You get full 3D Vision software, that also support 3D gaming. Users that already bought 3D vision get this update for free.

AMD/ATI went another way. They added support for 3D TV in Catalyst 10.3 for free. But they added really nothing more than 3D TV support. Support for Blu-Ray 3D and 3D gaming is something the software developers has to do itself. Arcsoft added this support in their software and Cyberlink will bring an update soon.

[colinhunt]

Originally Posted by KarstenS

AMD/ATI went another way. They added support for 3D TV in Catalyst 10.3 for free. But they added really nothing more than 3D TV support. Support for Blu-Ray 3D and 3D gaming is something the software developers has to do itself. Arcsoft added this support in their software and Cyberlink will bring an update soon.

You've tested this and verified for yourself that it works? Regardless, support in PC software for 3D HDTVs means that the PC is converting images on-the-fly to a format supported by 3D HDTVs - so the native-to-PC 120fps page flipping format is not compatible with 3D HDTVs.

And Arcsoft's player has to go through the display driver. So if the driver does not support 3D TVs, there's nothing Arcsoft can do. Hence the "Compatible graphics driver is required" disclaimer on their website.

edit: Googled a bit about Catalyst 10.3 and judging by a post on the 3D Vision Blog, Catalyst 10.3 does not enable Blu-ray 3D playback on a HDMI 1.4 3D HDTV. Also, found this thread, http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...hreadid=136352 on the AMD Game Forums. Note the last post, dated 20.7., where someone asked AMD's rep about Blu-ray 3D playback on 3D TVs, and the rep replied "later this year". So it's not working yet.

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by colinhunt

You've tested this and verified for yourself that it works?

Now I have tested it and...it works. I had to acivate the PC Mode of my TV. Then it is possible to select 3D modes that the player give me as output. I tried line interleave and checkboard. Works in both modes. But only with TMT it looks like it should. With PowerDVD it give me a strange result.

But there is a big problem: No GPU acceleration at moment My Athlon64 x2 6000+ isn't fast enough for full speed.

But you are right. Real BD 3D output is different. Nvidia will bring this with its 3DTV software and ATI made an announcement in the internal Q2 roadmap.

But this was not the point, why I did write my first post in this thread. I wrote it to announce that I can test BDRebuilder with 3D Blu Ray, when there is some progress.

[colinhunt]

Originally Posted by KarstenS

Now I have tested it and...it works. I had to acivate the PC Mode of my TV. Then it is possible to select 3D modes that the player give me as output. I tried line interleave and checkboard. Works in both modes.

That's no surprise, as both line interleave and checkerboard are 100% compatible with existing specs. That's why SKY's satellite 3D broadcasts work with existing satellite set-top boxes. But you are losing half of vertical or horizontal resolution; that's the problem.

But this was not the point, why I did write my first post in this thread. I wrote it to announce that I can test BDRebuilder with 3D Blu Ray, when there is some progress.

Yup. I can test BD-RB with Blu-ray 3D too, at Full HD resolution, with Nvidia 3D Vision and LG W2363D 3D display

[jdobbs]

I hope and suspect that someone is thinking about this over in the X264 group. Since that's where most of the magic happens, that's also where the real work will be done.

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

X264 group

Hmm. ffdshow too. Without decoding, no encoding or is it possible to use the codec of PDVD/TMT3?

There is really much, that has to be done

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by KarstenS

Hmm. ffdshow too. Without decoding, no encoding or is it possible to use the codec of PDVD/TMT3?

There is really much, that has to be done

True.

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

True.

Have found an interesting software:

http://www.biohemmet.se/forum/viewtopic.php?id=245

This software is able to convert 3D BDs into MKV/AVI files and you can convert it into into individual files (2 mkv files. one for right and one for left eye), Side-By-Side and so on.

The interesting thing for BD-Rebuilder would be, how the software reads them. Maybe he would give you some advice for first steps how to make 3D BD support.

[deank]

We discussed the avisynth plugin in the first page of this thread. The problem is not reading the stereo information (SSIF) but re-creating it after encode/rebuild.

Converting 3D Blu-ray to stereo top/bottom, left/right or red/cyan, green/magenta anaglyph is not a problem and is already implemented.

Dean

[KarstenS]

Originally Posted by deank

We discussed the avisynth plugin in the first page of this thread. The problem is not reading the stereo information (SSIF)

Sorry. Then I didn't understood. I thought reading and decoding is also a problem. So I was in hope, it would help a little bit.

Other thing:

After I've ripped the BD, I got a folder with a size of 74,6GB. But double layer BD only can store up to 50GB. So I think the 2D data is stored physically once. But how to get it as it is? The magic is called "hard links". The 3D files contains natively only the extended 3D stuff, but reads out the 2D stuff by hard linking to the 2D playback files.

EDIT: The other direction seems to be the better idea. Not the SSIF file is linked to the m2ts. I think the m2ts file is, frame by frame, linked to the 2d stuff within the SSIF file, as also with a 3DBD continuous read should be possible.

[deank]

I posted about the physical sharing of SSIF files with m2ts files and that it will require ImgBurn author's collaboration at a later point to build proper ISO for 3D Blu-ray backups.

[icester]

Originally Posted by deank

I posted about the physical sharing of SSIF files with m2ts files and that it will require ImgBurn author's collaboration at a later point to build proper ISO for 3D Blu-ray backups.

Yes, but he will need the exact ssif file format.

I think it cost around US$ 800.

http://www.blu-raydisc.info/format-spec/rom3-spec.php

May be someone has a copy to share.


Mathew Orman

[deank]

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

[dirio49]

Originally Posted by deank

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

Imgburn already supports this given that those two files are bit identical. The files will share the same physical sectors.

Optimise Duplicate Files

ImgBurn will look for and optimise duplicate files so that only one copy of that file actually exists in the image or on the disc.

Imgburn 2.2.0.0
Added: Build mode now has the ability to look for and optimise duplicate files so that only 1 copy of that
 file actually exists in the ISO/on the disc.

[icester]

Originally Posted by deank

No, he doesn't need the SSIF specs, because the SSIF is 1:1 to the corresponding M2TS file.


for example:

00001.m2ts
00002.m2ts --> 00002.ssif
00009.m2ts
00011.m2ts
00012.m2ts --> 00012.ssif

He doesn't have to care about the contents of these files, but to make sure that both are described in the disc TOC as occupying the same physical sectors.

Dean

Well, if that was true the newly created ssif would work.
But according to this one spec the ssif is more complex.
See the public documentation at:

http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.co...Dspec18780.pdf

Mathew Orman

[icester]

OK,
so the imgburn assumes ssif is defect free.
I was just hoping that someone knows how to create new ssif using the two base view and dependent view h.264 files.

Mathew Orman

[KarstenS]

The SSIF and M2TS are not exactly the same.

The SSIF contains the whole data for both views. The M2TS is only linking to one view within the SSIF file.