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Old 8th December 2017, 21:26   #1281  |  Link
TheFluff
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Again, TDP isn't a direct measure of heat expelled by a given system. But it's also not a measurement of mere power consumption. For example, given the TDP numbers against your heat measurement, I have to wonder if the CPU heatsink is inadequate, or needs a re-seat/re-paste. That's what the numbers tell me. It also tells me to expect the GPU to run hotter, though probably not 2x hotter realistically. Those are why the numbers exist.
That's not how TDP works. That's not how any of this works!

Clearly, it's time for

Thermodynamics 101
with T. Fluff, PhD
(I hold a doctorate in The Science of Telling People they are Wrong on the Internet)

Let's review the fundamentals first, yeah? This is all high school physics, so you should probably know this. The laws of thermodynamics tell us two important things relevant to this discussion, namely that
a) energy can never be created or destroyed (so if we put some energy into a system we must get the same amount of energy out), and
b) entropy tends to increase, so if you have two bodies with different temperatures in thermic contact with each other energy will flow from the hotter one to the colder one until they reach equilibrium.

Now on to what this means in practice. In a computer, we input electrical energy. Some of this energy is converted to kinetic energy (to spin harddrive platters and fans), and some is converted to electromagnetic radiation mainly in the form of visible light (in LED's and in the monitor), but the vast majority of it eventually decays to thermal energy after being used to push some electrons around through a bunch of transistors. This heat has to go somewhere, and that somewhere eventually ends up being the air of the room. In a moment, we will calculate the magnitude of this effect, but first we need to clear up a misconception.

The TDP of a processor is an estimated ballpark number of the amount of thermal energy it generates in a given fictive scenario that's supposed to represent a typical peak workload. In any other scenario (such as most scenarios you'll find in reality), the actual amount of heat generated is different - the TDP is only supposed to be a rough estimate of the maximum sustained heat generation possible. The TDP number has absolutely nothing to do with any of the following:
- amount of heat generated at idle
- amount of electrical power consumed at idle
- temperature of the silicon in any given situation

In practice, the amount of thermal energy generated by a processor is pretty much equivalent to its electrical power consumption because almost all of the electrical energy quickly decays to heat. The first law of thermodynamics also tells us that we cannot possibly get more thermal energy out of a processor than the amount of electrical energy we put into it. If you look at the processor's power consumption then, you will have a good idea of how much heat it's producing. Modern CPU's and GPU's are very good at clocking down (and more importantly, reducing the voltage) at idle and so you'll see a typical idle power consumption of 10-20 watts. The power consumption - and by extension, thermal energy generation - still doesn't have anything to do with the temperature of the chip, though. See, temperature is a measure of energy, but it's a measure of stored energy. Two chips consuming the same amount of electrical energy will heat your room exactly the same, even if one is twice as hot as the other. The only thing that's different in the hotter chip is that the energy stays in it for longer before dissipating into the room.

Speaking of energy storage, to calculate the heating effect of an idling CPU we first need to discuss specific heat capacity. Different substances can store different amounts of thermal energy, and the specific heat capacity is a measure of how much energy a substance can store per unit mass. Or, in more practical terms - heating one kilogram of water by one degree Kelvin takes about four times as much energy as heating one kilogram of air by one degree Kelvin. Many metals have very low specific heat capacity, meaning it takes little energy to heat them up, but conversely that also means they're bad at retaining that energy and they quickly cool down again. For example, copper (commonly used in heatsinks because of its excellent thermal conductivity) has a specific heat capacity of 0.385 J/gK (joules per gram kelvin difference - it takes 0.385 joules of energy to heat one gram of copper by one degree kelvin). Air at typical indoor conditions has a specific heat capacity of about 1.01 J/gK.

If we then assume a spherical CPU in a vacuum... uh, no, I mean, a small 30 square meter studio apartment with the minimum indoor ceiling height of 2.4 meters allowed by the building code in these parts, we can easily calculate that the 72 cubic meters of air inside weighs around 92 kilograms. Given the previously discussed specific heat capacity, heating 92 kilograms of air by one degree kelvin (or equivalently in this case, one degree celsius) takes 92.9 kilojoules of energy. Now, a watt is a joule per second, so an idling CPU consuming 10 watts of energy would take 9290 seconds (or close to 2 hours and 35 minutes) to heat the apartment by one degree kelvin. Do note though that this of course assumes completely unrealistic conditions, for example that the apartment is perfectly thermally insulated against the outside world, so it is of course necessary for there to be no ventilation whatsoever. The building code here demands that the ventilation of private dwellings should change the indoor air at least once every two hours, making the job of that idling CPU a Sisyphean task.

So, in conclusion, no, my heatsink isn't inadequately fastened, and the TDP has nothing to do with this at all. I could easily transfer the heat out of the CPU quicker and thereby making it cooler by running the CPU fan faster, but why on earth would I? There's absolutely no reason to.

Last edited by TheFluff; 8th December 2017 at 21:43.
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Old 8th December 2017, 22:10   #1282  |  Link
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In other words, TDP is just requirement for cooling system.
Note that modern CPUs (and GPUs) could easily exceed TDP index under heavy load (AVX-512 etc.), but integrated current/power meters and forced clock drop won't let them do so.
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Old 9th December 2017, 10:38   #1283  |  Link
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And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
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Old 9th December 2017, 14:38   #1284  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
lol

One weird trick, discovered by a Doom9 forums poster, lets you violate the laws of thermodynamics. Physicists HATE him!

f'in tdp's, how do they work???
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Old 9th December 2017, 15:36   #1285  |  Link
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lol
One weird trick, discovered by a Doom9 forums poster, lets you violate the laws of thermodynamics. Physicists HATE him!
f'in tdp's, how do they work???
Yeah, I thought as much. No answer.

As I said, TDP has a very obvious correlation to actual heat output. TDP isn't a measure of it, but it must be closely related. Accumulated TDP can be a good guide to how hot your computer will be, specifically monitoring an increase in ambient temperature in the room.

If I can lower room temps by a few degrees, simply by NOT buying an expensive/fancy graphics card, I'm better for it. If watching the TDPs help me make smarter/cooler purchases, then that's what I'll do. So far, that's worked perfectly. Not everybody live in Canada or wherever, where years-round temps are measured in snowfall inches. We must pay close attention to how a computer heats the dwelling.

This is a thread about KNLmeansCL, not TDP.
I've stripped KNL down to base settings, am getting 10fps now, and have moved on. I suggest you do the same.
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Last edited by lordsmurf; 10th December 2017 at 00:07.
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:44   #1286  |  Link
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I'm amused how the "experts" of this Doom9 thread just won't let this go. It's a thread about KNLmeansCL. I've stripped it down to base settings, am getting 10fps now, and have moved. I suggest you do the same.
No dude, you don't get to pretend to be the bigger man here and move on while rolling your eyes at these silly "experts" with their "science". You went spouting off nonsense in an authoritative tone and now you're trying to weasel out of being dumb on the internet. I won't stand for it.

I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm not trying to sell you a GPU, I'm not trying to convince you to use KNLMeans, I'm not even trying to dispute your apartment temperature numbers. I only want you to understand why nothing you're saying makes any sense. I will not accept you claiming that you'd prefer to believe in literal magic because you don't understand basic physics. I also really doubt you've made the ambient temperature experiment under controlled conditions, so I really don't think you're getting much mileage out of "thinking for yourself".

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
As I said, TDP has a very obvious correlation to actual heat output. TDP isn't a measure of it, but it must be closely related. Accumulated TDP can be a good guide to how hot your computer will be, specifically monitoring an increase in ambient temperature in the room.
See, you're so close and yet you are a galaxy away. The TDP number is a quite good measure of the actual heat output! AT MAX LOAD, that is. Back in the bad old days with Pentium 4's and such things, it actually kinda did tell you something about idle power consumption (and therefore heat output - as I have previously shown, they are effectively the same) as well, because processors in those days were really bad at clocking down and if you were lucky they could cut their power consumption in half while idling, maybe. Today this is no longer the case and everything clocks down to use like 10-15 watts at idle. A high TDP processor has the potential to put out more heat, but at idle there's no difference - see my screenshots above that are showing the same power consumption (and therefore heat output) of two different chips where one has more than twice the TDP of the other.

You can plug in a watt meter into the wall socket and then plug the computer into that if you're actually curious about this. They're like 25 bucks on Amazon. You will then notice that your power consumption at idle is a lot more than just the CPU's idling power consumption (because there's other stuff using power in the computer as well, and the PSU is only about 80-90% efficient at converting wall socket AC to low voltage DC), but also that if you actually put your computer under load, power consumption will immediately increase significantly, and there's the difference between idle power and TDP. In practice you can see the computer as an electrical space heater; effectively all of the electrical energy it is using gets turned into thermal energy.

I think you're suffering from the misconception that the temperature of the components is interesting for some reason. It's not. It is true that a higher temperature difference between a hot thing and the ambient air increases the rate at which energy is transferred from one to the other, but in this case we're talking about a steady state situation: we're inputting a constant amount of energy per second into the chip, and it's transferring exactly that much energy into the surrounding air per second. If it was transferring less energy out than it was receiving, it would become hotter, because it would be storing more energy.

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- If you can explain this, great! I'm all ears.
- If not, STFU.
Of course I can't explain the conditions in your apartment with your computer without any details about it. For all I know you might have turned off the CPU power saving features in the BIOS and are always running at full power consumption.

Last edited by TheFluff; 9th December 2017 at 23:46.
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:53   #1287  |  Link
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And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
Maybe because the walls of the room cool it down faster than the PC can heat it up?
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:54   #1288  |  Link
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now you're trying to weasel out of being dumb on the internet.
Sigh. No. I came to the KNLmeansCL threads to talk about the filter, not this BS. I've mostly resolved that encoding speed issue. You're the one that keeps harping on TDP, and my statement of not wanting a graphics card because it add 5 degrees of heat to the room.

Quote:
Back in the bad old days with Pentium 4's and such things
TDP is somewhat gamed like megapixels in cameras, and has been for years. CPUs can get hotter than the TDP, and TDP doesn't reflect maximum heat output. But it is a gauge of heat nonetheless. And that heat goes somewhere (ie, the room with the computer). A hotter TDP item rarely outputs less heat than lower TDP item, even at idle.

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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
your apartment
Not where I live. You're assuming too much.

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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
you might have turned off the CPU power saving features in the BIOS and are always running at full power consumption.
More assumptions.

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Originally Posted by LigH View Post
Maybe because the walls of the room cool it down faster than the PC can heat it up?
Huh?
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Last edited by lordsmurf; 10th December 2017 at 00:24.
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:58   #1289  |  Link
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Please, please, concentrate more on technical than personal topics.

Some of our moderators here are quite strict when it comes to violating the Netiquette.
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Old 10th December 2017, 00:15   #1290  |  Link
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Please, please, concentrate more on technical than personal topics.
Gladly!

One thing I noticed when trying to cut down the KNL settings (for speed) was that adjusting A=2 to A=1 seems to massively cut down on it's effectiveness, yet encoding speed remained almost unchanged. I didn't see why that would happen.

Also, the s=1 syntax suggestion from default s=2 did nothing.

I'm partially assuming it's related to the 4x calls from the script, or the horrible video where it was used.
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Old 10th December 2017, 00:38   #1291  |  Link
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You're the one that keeps harping on TDP, and my statement of not wanting a graphics card because it add 5 degrees of heat to the room.
If you don't want a GPU, fine! I'm not a GPU salesman. I'm not trying to say it's wrong to not have a GPU. Claiming an idling GPU will add five degrees (are we even talking Celsius here or what?) to your room temperature is physically possible but I'd call it extremely goddamn unlikely to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
TDP is somewhat gamed like megapixels in cameras, and has been for years. CPUs can get hotter than the TDP, and TDP doesn't reflect maximum heat output. But it is a gauge of heat nonetheless. And that heat goes somewhere (ie, the room with the computer).
It's not "gamed" - it's an engineering classification, not an empirically measured number. Maximum heat output is exactly what it reflects, although again it's not an exact measurement but rather a nice round ballpark number intended for estimating how much cooler you'll need.

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A hotter TDP item rarely outputs less heat than lower TDP item, even at idle.
This statement is exactly what I'm taking issue with. A processor will output not output even a milliwatt more thermal energy than the electrical energy it is consuming, and I've already shown you exact power consumption numbers at idle. This is fundamental thermodynamics. If you refuse to accept this you are rejecting physics as a whole and effectively believe in magic.

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Please, please, concentrate more on technical than personal topics.

Some of our moderators here are quite strict when it comes to violating the Netiquette.
lol this forum is barely moderated at all
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:18   #1292  |  Link
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lol this forum is barely moderated at all
Well, it is amusing that kind of discussions, seems you have enough time in your lifes.

BTW if Khanattila (thread owner) want I can delete some off topic posts (or create a new thread about temperature).
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Old 16th December 2017, 16:00   #1293  |  Link
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Well, it is amusing that kind of discussions, seems you have enough time in your lifes.

BTW if Khanattila (thread owner) want I can delete some off topic posts (or create a new thread about temperature).
I do not care.
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Old 16th December 2017, 16:04   #1294  |  Link
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I can delete some off topic posts (or create a new thread about temperature).
Either option would probably be appreciated by most users. Just my 2c.
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Old 16th December 2017, 17:28   #1295  |  Link
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create a new thread about temperature is better in my opinion
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Old 17th December 2017, 18:42   #1296  |  Link
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Why does KNLMeansCL v1.1 throw this error (i'm using avisynth+MT)


script
Code:
video=FFVideoSource("E:\_Video_Samples\mp4\Sony_4K_HDR_Camp.mp4") //420p10 source
video=ConvertToYUV444(video)
video=KNLMeansCL(video,d=1, a=2, s=4, h=4, device_type="CPU", device_id=0)

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Old 19th December 2017, 18:27   #1297  |  Link
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Another bug? Possible.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 17:56   #1298  |  Link
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First of all, happy new year
Good, let's get back to release updates.

Contrary to what I had planned the v1.1.* branch will have update (bugfixes) because the main changes that I would like to implement are really taking me longer than expected.

Let's make a list of known bugs:
- clc compile error with OCL 1.2 (fixed);
- Broken frame on first request (Bug don't happen when running with d=0, without rclip or inside MP_Pipeline);
- Low values of ref clip cause dimmed borders;
- Don't work with AMD RX Vega GPU;
- Wrong message with YUV444P10 input (fixed)(Atak_Snajpera)
- AviSynth+ YV24 native format bug (fixed)(MysteryX)
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Old 29th January 2018, 16:32   #1299  |  Link
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https://github.com/Khanattila/KNLMea...ses/tag/v1.1.1
Code:
KNLMeansCL v1.1.1
* Added more check of rclip.
* Fixed build programm error in some circumstances. 
* Fixed Avisynth YUV444P10 video format.
* Fixed Vapoursynth RGB30 video format.
* Fixed clip processing with higher resolution than 4K.
Enjoi.
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Old 29th January 2018, 17:58   #1300  |  Link
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KNLMeansCL v1.1.1
First of all, thanks.

I use it as prefilter with SMDegrain.

Any idea of why video output size changed?

From changelog, nothing gives hints.
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