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Old 17th December 2015, 15:51   #34701  |  Link
Stereodude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
feel free to step through each frame IVTC isn't needed for this file.
That all depends on if the decoder honors the soft pulldown flag or not and then what it does after that (deinterlace / pass as interlaced / etc).

Quote:
the output is already 23p the "only" issue is that madVR isn't switching to 23p and stays at 60 hz because source filter says it is 29p.
Again, it depends on what the decoder does. The various HW decoders all do slightly different things. For example, the Quicksync HW decoder will output that clip as progressive 29.97Hz video without a repeated frame and madVR will only find a 2:2 pattern. avcodec (software decoding) seems to be needed for proper handling of this and many other DVDs as well as HD 1080i MPEG-2 content.

Quote:
don't get me wrong madVR IVTC shouldn't fail in this case but this file is not a typical DVD.
From what I've seen it is a typical NTSC DVD. Most DVDs I've tested behave the same way, and I'm not talking about anime or small studio releases of non-theatrical content, but major studio releases of recent theatrical motion pictures. A few will indicate to the processing chain that they are interlaced, but not many.

Quote:
i guess the muxer did something to it but this is just a guess.
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:17   #34702  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
It doesn't matter if you change containers if the same demuxer is being used. Which demuxer are you using?
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:29   #34703  |  Link
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i tested now quicksync, dxva native (AMD) and software. all output 23p flagged as 29p.

there is no repeated frame in the stream and no waved either.

Quote:
The .m2v extracted straight from the DVD does the same thing, as does playing the DVD. Putting it in a .mkv container didn't change the playback behavior of the MPEG-2 content at all.
correct but why is VFR and missing all stream flags except range and interlaced?

adding FPS=23 should be an ok workaround for now for soft telecine DVDs. it would be nice if the source filter will do this by default with a disc that has clear flags like these:

Code:
Video
ID                             : 224 (0xE0)
Format                         : MPEG Video
Format version                 : Version 2
Format profile                 : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP          : Yes
Format settings, Matrix        : Custom
Format settings, GOP           : Variable
Duration                       : 15mn 8s
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 7 726 Kbps
Maximum bit rate               : 9 800 Kbps
Width                          : 720 pixels
Height                         : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) fps
Standard                       : Component
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 8 bits
Scan type                      : Progressive
Scan order                     : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode               : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.932
Time code of first frame       : 01:00:05:00
Time code source               : Group of pictures header
Stream size                    : 837 MiB (82%)
Color primaries                : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics       : BT.601
Matrix coefficients            : BT.601
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:55   #34704  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aktan View Post
It doesn't matter if you change containers if the same demuxer is being used. Which demuxer are you using?
The LAV filters (internal with MPC-HC 1.7.10)
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Old 17th December 2015, 17:11   #34705  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i tested now quicksync, dxva native (AMD) and software. all output 23p flagged as 29p.

there is no repeated frame in the stream and no waved either.
I'm not sure I agree with you on all those test cases / permutations. If what you're saying is true there would be no 3:2 pattern for madVR to see (after enabling deinterlacing with forced film mode turned on).
It would see a 2:2 pattern due to the progressive content. Using quicksync HW decoding it definitely finds a 2:2 pattern, which is not what it finds using software (avcodec). Further, the IVTC algorithm wouldn't get confused and pass combed frames if it was being fed progressive frames.

Quote:
correct but why is VFR and missing all stream flags except range and interlaced?

adding FPS=23 should be an ok workaround for now for soft telecine DVDs. it would be nice if the source filter will do this by default with a disc that has clear flags like these:
Regardless, you currently can't play it back correctly at 24/1.001Hz unless you enable deinterlacing and forced film mode (IVTC) in madVR. And, the IVTC detection pukes twice in this scene.

Last edited by Stereodude; 17th December 2015 at 17:13.
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Old 17th December 2015, 20:07   #34706  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'm not sure I agree with you on all those test cases / permutations. If what you're saying is true there would be no 3:2 pattern for madVR to see (after enabling deinterlacing with forced film mode turned on).
It would see a 2:2 pattern due to the progressive content. Using quicksync HW decoding it definitely finds a 2:2 pattern, which is not what it finds using software (avcodec). Further, the IVTC algorithm wouldn't get confused and pass combed frames if it was being fed progressive frames.
i agree i have no clue why madVR is able to see a 3:2 pattern. there is no combed frame with disabled deinterlacing.

but why would it get confused in the first place this file is clearly soft telecine this means the repeated field is bit identical to another field.

Quote:
Regardless, you currently can't play it back correctly at 24/1.001Hz unless you enable deinterlacing and forced film mode (IVTC) in madVR. And, the IVTC detection pukes twice in this scene.
it works flawlessly with disabled deinterlacing at 23p here for me.
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:13   #34707  |  Link
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Hello again!

Thanks a lot for answering my question about my crash log file.

After your response, I think that something might be off with my drivers, because my laptop has drivers from Acer and not from Nvidia, so they might not be compatible with something.

Nvidia drivers return blue screen 5 minutes after installing, video memory error, so something might be wrong on my side.

I cannot wait to upgrade to a laptop with a gtx980 desktop inside




Now I have another question or two for people who can help.

I have dithering set to error diffusion 2 without colored noise or changing patterns.

1.But does LAV video filter apply another layer of dithering?

2.Another question : I might want to disable the entire dithering process, is it possible, or would it degrade image quality?

3.And another thing: How can I set in mpc-hc the player to copy the entire file playing in RAM? I have 16 gb of RAM and most things I do never use more than 2-4gb, so I have enough to spare, and I would want my videos in RAM while playing for better decoding, and maybe reduction of micro stutter (?).
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:54   #34708  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
1.But does LAV video filter apply another layer of dithering?
No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).

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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
2.Another question : I might want to disable the entire dithering process, is it possible, or would it degrade image quality?
Dithering improves image quality by preventing banding artifacts that arise from conversion to integer in the final stage of the video rendering pipeline. Disabling it will only make things worse.

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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
3.And another thing: How can I set in mpc-hc the player to copy the entire file playing in RAM? I have 16 gb of RAM and most things I do never use more than 2-4gb, so I have enough to spare, and I would want my videos in RAM while playing for better decoding, and maybe reduction of micro stutter (?).
You won't get "better decoding" or "reduction of micro stutter" by doing that. Whether the file is played from RAM or disk has absolutely zero effect on decoding. It doesn't have any effect on the timing of video presentation either, because it's massively buffered at various stages of the video chain anyway precisely to avoid such issues. Note that LAV Splitter, IIRC, will by default buffer a large portion of the video anyway (hundreds of megabytes).
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:33   #34709  |  Link
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).
Thats only half-true, it dithers whenever it reduces the bitdepth - well at least on the most common optimized conversion paths.
But it doesn't dither when you use madVR and didn't screw up the LAV settings (ie. don't disable any output formats).
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:36   #34710  |  Link
Georgel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
No. LAV only dithers if it has to convert to RGB. Which is not the case when using madVR (or any other sane video renderer for that matter).



Dithering improves image quality by preventing banding artifacts that arise from conversion to integer in the final stage of the video rendering pipeline. Disabling it will only make things worse.



You won't get "better decoding" or "reduction of micro stutter" by doing that. Whether the file is played from RAM or disk has absolutely zero effect on decoding. It doesn't have any effect on the timing of video presentation either, because it's massively buffered at various stages of the video chain anyway precisely to avoid such issues. Note that LAV Splitter, IIRC, will by default buffer a large portion of the video anyway (hundreds of megabytes).
Thanks a lot for all the data!

About the image in the first post, where you fiind out what type of input your monitor accepts, if I have 4:4:4 what does it mean, and how do I make use of it when using mpc-hc and madVR?
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Old 18th December 2015, 01:01   #34711  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
About the image in the first post, where you fiind out what type of input your monitor accepts, if I have 4:4:4 what does it mean, and how do I make use of it when using mpc-hc and madVR?
Please read Chroma Subsampling.

You do not need to do anything to take advantage of a 4:4:4 display, it simply means you have full resolution chroma. If you have a 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 display chroma scaling options are less important.
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Old 18th December 2015, 01:17   #34712  |  Link
Georgel
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Please read Chroma Subsampling.

You do not need to do anything to take advantage of a 4:4:4 display, it simply means you have full resolution chroma. If you have a 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 display chroma scaling options are less important.
Thanks a lot!







I took a look at the samples posted on the first page, madTestPatternSource. I wanted to ask if for 23 , 24 , and 25 fps files, it is normal that the vertical black bars would jump from one position to the next, without being overly smooth.

This happens with all bars, except the top, bottom and sometimes the second from top to bottom. But the rest of the bars are jumpy for me, not like jumping dropping frames, but more like micro stutter. I have smooth motion active.

Another strange thing is that I get a reported frame rate of

60fps (not constant, it starts from 180fps then jumps to 170 and so on until it touches 62 then it is lowering itself with 0.1 per 2-3 seconds) for all 23, 24, and 25 test files.
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Old 18th December 2015, 02:29   #34713  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.
Okay I've taken a look at the sample. I'm not sure what I'm missing here. With default settings, madVR turns off deinterlacing because the upstream says it's not needed. Fine, you said to turn it on. So I did turn it on with automatic source type detection. It detected fine and I saw no problem. Okay, you said IVTC. I turned off automatic source type and force film mode. Then and only then do I see the problem you describe, but I forced it to film mode when originally it completely thought there was no need to deinterlace. Why force it?

Edit: I reread later posts where you explain why. My bad. Hmm...

Here is what ffmpeg says about the sample:

Code:
Input #0, matroska,webm, from '..\..\..\Castle S05E04 IVTC Failure sample.mkv':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : libebml v1.3.1 + libmatroska v1.4.2
    creation_time   : 2015-12-17 04:04:26
  Duration: 00:00:22.61, start: 0.004000, bitrate: 5476 kb/s
    Stream #0:0(eng): Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv), 720x480 [SAR 32:27
DAR 16:9], Closed Captions, max. 9800 kb/s, SAR 186:157 DAR 279:157, 59.94 fps,
59.94 tbr, 1k tbn, 59.94 tbc (default)
    Metadata:
      BPS             : 5093403
      BPS-eng         : 5093403
      DURATION        : 00:00:22.606000000
      DURATION-eng    : 00:00:22.606000000
      NUMBER_OF_FRAMES: 542
      NUMBER_OF_FRAMES-eng: 542
      NUMBER_OF_BYTES : 14392684
      NUMBER_OF_BYTES-eng: 14392684
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_APP: mkvmerge v7.7.0 ('Six Voices') 32bit built on Feb
 28 2015 23:23:00
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_APP-eng: mkvmerge v7.7.0 ('Six Voices') 32bit built on
 Feb 28 2015 23:23:00
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_DATE_UTC: 2015-12-17 04:04:26
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_DATE_UTC-eng: 2015-12-17 04:04:26
      _STATISTICS_TAGS: BPS DURATION NUMBER_OF_FRAMES NUMBER_OF_BYTES
      _STATISTICS_TAGS-eng: BPS DURATION NUMBER_OF_FRAMES NUMBER_OF_BYTES
    Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s (default)
    Metadata:
      BPS             : 384000
      BPS-eng         : 384000
      DURATION        : 00:00:22.176000000
      DURATION-eng    : 00:00:22.176000000
      NUMBER_OF_FRAMES: 693
      NUMBER_OF_FRAMES-eng: 693
      NUMBER_OF_BYTES : 1064448
      NUMBER_OF_BYTES-eng: 1064448
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_APP: mkvmerge v7.7.0 ('Six Voices') 32bit built on Feb
 28 2015 23:23:00
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_APP-eng: mkvmerge v7.7.0 ('Six Voices') 32bit built on
 Feb 28 2015 23:23:00
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_DATE_UTC: 2015-12-17 04:04:26
      _STATISTICS_WRITING_DATE_UTC-eng: 2015-12-17 04:04:26
      _STATISTICS_TAGS: BPS DURATION NUMBER_OF_FRAMES NUMBER_OF_BYTES
      _STATISTICS_TAGS-eng: BPS DURATION NUMBER_OF_FRAMES NUMBER_OF_BYTES
At least one output file must be specified

Last edited by Aktan; 18th December 2015 at 03:03.
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Old 18th December 2015, 04:26   #34714  |  Link
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I also noticed if you uncheck "only look at pixels in the frame center..." The messing up happens less often.

Edit: After doing more testing, since it seems the video decoder honor the flags anyway and outputs at 23p, I agree with huhn and just disable deinterlacing and set output 23p.

Last edited by Aktan; 18th December 2015 at 05:08.
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Old 18th December 2015, 16:43   #34715  |  Link
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I use Windows 10 Pro x64(10586.29)+AMD Fury X.
When I update VGA driver to new driver【radeon-crimson-15.12-win10-64bit】

The NNEDI3 in madVR(chroma upscaling or image doubling)all could not work.
Maybe the madVR NNEDI3 OpenCL kernel something wrong in new VGA driver.

I always use SVP4 Pro+madVR together.
SmoothVideo Project SVP(3.17a and 4 pro)has the same error when using GPU-acceleration(OpneCL).

Any idea to fix it ?

If there is no way to fix it, I just only go back to old VGA driver.
Because old VGA driver(not crimson)all works fine.

Last edited by nanpan; 18th December 2015 at 19:05.
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Old 18th December 2015, 22:50   #34716  |  Link
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0.89.18 playback is stopped (only audio work) with a cloned 2nd monitor
reverting to .17 is fine
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Old 18th December 2015, 23:42   #34717  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsolidsnake86 View Post
0.89.18 playback is stopped (only audio work) with a cloned 2nd monitor
reverting to .17 is fine
v0.89.18 works with cloned monitors on my system. Windowed Overlay only shows an image on one screen but D3D9 or D3D11 windowed or exclusive works fine, I have an image on both screens.

Win10 x64, Zoom Player 11.1, Nvidia 980 Ti with driver version 359.06.
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Old 19th December 2015, 00:07   #34718  |  Link
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10bit rips on 8bit display

Hi madshi and everybody, first i want to thanks madshi for this great work and all the people in the forum, i never posted anything here because everytime i have a doubt someone already explaned here
i have a question that i don't know if has already been discuted here, i searched but did not find

i watch my movies on an relative old laptop with an disgusting optmus system,
after milions of tests i can assume that my display output 8 bit, my question is:

if i play a 10 bit content on my 8 bit display, i'm loosing some color information?
i thought that madvr converts or dither down to 8 bit, but in my osd shows: h264, 10bit, 4:2:0 -> P010, 10 bit, 4:2:0

my laptop display output 1920x1080p with fixed refresh rate 60 hz (59.63046)

I'm using madVR v0.89.18 on latest mpc-hc and lav nitghly buid

software decoding on lav with untouched output levels (thats another question should i left untouched or pc levels on lav? thereīs any effect on the image if is madvr that does the conversion to rgb? )

my madvr settings:

d93d exclusive
the display is calibrate to bt 709 power curve 2.20 with i1d2 (not perfect acurated but good)
deband=off
chroma= Lanczos4 AR
Downscale: catmul-rom AR LL
Upscale: Lanczos3 AR
enhance details= 1.00 on image refinements
smooth motion = on
ordered dithering with colored noise=enable, change patterns =disabled
trade quality options are the standard but with 16bit buffer option disabled (donīt see perfomance improvement if i active this option)


the movie is 1080p fps=23.976 16:9 so theres no image scaling or AR adjust

i notice that the movie has no banding at all, but seens slighty blurry, i do know if is because the 10 bit on 8 bit display, or because the encode,or the movie itself, or smooth motion (donīt see look like the same slighty blurry aspect on other movies with smooth motion on) is a web serie: the man on the high castle, i watched other rips and seens that the movie was studio mastered with some sort of heavy fxaa filter like pc games

its the first 10bit encode that i watch so i donīt have other references to compare

i watched the life of pi e and exodus HDR trailers that are 10 bit too, but my gpu canīt handle downscale content to 1080p even with overclock, bilinear or dxva scalling, so looked like a slide show (but look likes great, vivid colours and contrast and great image quality, artificial because special effects but very pleasent experience)

i will found other 10bit encodes to compare, but i want to know if i loosing my time watching this on a 8bit panel
thats my question, i'm sorry about my bad english, i'm from Brasil
thanks

Last edited by CarlosCaco; 19th December 2015 at 01:58. Reason: english errors and missing information
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Old 19th December 2015, 02:07   #34719  |  Link
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Im a bit confused by the terms 8-bit, 10-bit etc. in relation to the number of colours. my monitor has 16.7 million colours, but I dont know if that is 8-bit or 10-bit.
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Old 19th December 2015, 02:24   #34720  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aktan View Post
I also noticed if you uncheck "only look at pixels in the frame center..." The messing up happens less often.
That might work for DVDs, but it doesn't work for broadcast 1080i60 HDTV where there are lots of logos crawls and other crap outside of the center that will mess it up if you don't limit it to the center.

Quote:
Edit: After doing more testing, since it seems the video decoder honor the flags anyway and outputs at 23p, I agree with huhn and just disable deinterlacing and set output 23p.
It seems the HW decoders ignore the soft pulldown flags, not honor them. Further, I'm not sure what you two are seeing, but disabling deinterlacing with software decoding (avcodec) with the video card outputting 24/1.001Hz looks terrible and the render times are higher to boot. Maybe it's engaging smooth motion. I haven't spent a lot of time with it.
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