madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[DragonQ]

OK thanks, I'll try that tomrrow.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by DarkSpace

Those images also show these "gremlins" that madshi noticed in the Jinc AR algorithms

Yes, but it's probably not useful material for that.

Originally Posted by DarkSpace

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Linear Light upscaling with Jinc (AR or not) looks worse* on these images?

Linear light is not a good option for upscaling really.

Originally Posted by DarkSpace

Looks like I'm getting Bilinear upscaling on AMD Radeon HD 6970M when scaling with DXVA. However, I didn't pay too close attention to things like additional sharpening algorithms.

It's really only a useful test to quickly see if the card is using bilinear or not, as that's very distinctive compared to the other scaling algorithms.

For sharpening, it's a lot more obvious with other test patterns. I don't think you would really notice it there.

[khanmein]

@madshi i'm using oldsch madFlac v1.10 + LAV splitter v0.54.1

bro, r u goin to release new update for madFlac?

should i tick delay playback start after seeking, too? thanks alot~

[pandy]

@madshi

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1604267#post1604267

Thank You in Advance madshi

[egur]

I'd like to ask for a feature:
Make MadVR power aware - have a combo box for selecting scaler used when laptop is on batteries.
Values can be either :
* DXVA scaler
* Bilinear (D3D)
* Same as connected to AC power.

Or just duplicate the existing propery pages for selecting the scaler(s) in power savings mode.

As for defaults, I'd rather have DXVA used for power savings mode, but maybe other people have different ideas.

[lastending]

I'm new here and can't read this topic from the beginning.
Someone can tell me how to disable scaling algorithms (chroma upscaling, image up/downscaling) please? I like to see orignal colors/sharpen of source
or can you show me some option you usually use for better? (I have source 1080p and 17" monitor + 32" TV)

[MokrySedeS]

I may be wrong but I think that you can't aviod chroma scaling.
As for image scaling - it's controlled by a player. For example in mpc-hc check this option: Menu View --> Video Frame --> Normal Size

[Heuer]

Madshi

Regarding my sound break-up issue with 85.2.

I tried running it on a different machine (i5, W7, MPC-HC+LAV+madVR+Reclock) and this time there was sound but no picture. (It always amazed me that this setup would run happily run on a machine without a discrete GPU, but it did for most material without crashing). I then tried downloading the 85.2 zip file from your 'previous versions' page rather than the header on page 1 of this thread. It worked perfectly so not sure if there is a problem with one of your zip files or links?

[lastending]

Originally Posted by MokrySedeS

I may be wrong but I think that you can't aviod chroma scaling.
As for image scaling - it's controlled by a player. For example in mpc-hc check this option: Menu View --> Video Frame --> Normal Size

Thank you
i only have sb cpu and i see someone tell about to set image scaling for DXVA2, i tried and only think i see is bolder colors (it's pretty for me) and little alias

[cca]

Since my main PC died (lightning ...) I am trying to use my humble Atom netbook for media purposes, it does have HDMI. madVR is unusable in it I'm afraid. DXVA scaling results in out of order frames for a couple of seconds and eventually a BSOD. Bilinear is the only option, but it still drops frames. Only EVR Custom in MPC-HC works correctly, set in Bilinear mode too. The GPU is an Intel GMA 3600. I suspect it has rather crappy drivers too. No newer version either on either the manufacturer's site or Intel's.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by cca

Since my main PC died (lightning ...) I am trying to use my humble Atom netbook for media purposes, it does have HDMI. madVR is unusable in it I'm afraid. DXVA scaling results in out of order frames for a couple of seconds and eventually a BSOD. Bilinear is the only option, but it still drops frames. Only EVR Custom in MPC-HC works correctly, set in Bilinear mode too. The GPU is an Intel GMA 3600. I suspect it has rather crappy drivers too. No newer version either on either the manufacturer's site or Intel's.

If you're stuggling for performance, there are some quality options available:

• don't use dithering
• use 10bit chroma buffer instead of 16bit
• use 10bit image buffer instead of 16bit

You might also want to try turning up the CPU & GPU queue sizes, but leave the backbuffer/present options at their defaults.

Be sure to avoid any of the display calibration options such as 3DLUTs, and try using CPU decoding instead of DXVA2. (if you're using DXVA)

If that still doesn't work, changing the flush settings might help.

[DragonQ]

If you can only have anti-ringing on either chroma or luma (for performance reasons), which is more useful?

[omarank]

Hi Madshi, will it be possible to show the current video levels when we change the source white and black levels, as pointed out by Leeperry earlier? I also wanted to know what does the new contrast control do exactly?

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

If you can only have anti-ringing on either chroma or luma (for performance reasons), which is more useful?

Use a sharper Luma scaler with AR, and use a softer chroma scaler which doesn't necessarily need AR. IMHO anyway.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

While DXVA2 is selected as the decoder in LAV Video and a file is playing, if MPC-HC's window is dragged to another screen then the video size resizes to what MPC-HC originally started with. This doesn't happen when software decoding is selected though.

This falls under minor cosmetical issues and as such doesn't even make my to do list for now... Feel free to report it again when madVR has reached v1.0.

Originally Posted by Toku

Just noticed that It's pretty difficult to see progress in the FSE seekbar when you're a bit back from the monitor unless the screen is pretty dark. Is it possible to get the progress color darkened or something? Obviously isn't anything major, and I seem to remember you said that you wouldn't rethink the presentation until v 1.0, but just thought I'd mention it.

I don't really feel like redesigning the seekbar now.

Originally Posted by THX-UltraII

Since that madVR is very mature already I think it might be usefull that a WIKI / manual will be created for madVR. I do not have the knowledge for this unfortunately.

Not sure about mature, at least it's not feature complete yet. I plan to create a documentation/help for v1.0, but not any sooner than that.

Originally Posted by pandy

I have small idea - perhaps not very smart - is there any chance to add display support for YCbCr data without conversion to RGB on RGB output - this can provide capability to change RGB analog output to YPbPr output - very simple adapter (perhaps some buffer only, perhaps only some caps + sync combiner) should be enough to connect any graphic card to YPbPr input of TV (one one typical video modes need to be set anyway) - in normal conditions people need to buy/build ( VGA RGB to YPbPr converter ) special converter from RGB to YPbPr. With such settings - i.e. RGB used as YPbPr output only sync combiner will be required.

Create an empty file with the name "YCbCr" in the madVR folder...

Originally Posted by hannes69

Redone the test with 0.85.2:
Now (1), (3) and (4) are the same, (2) is different (in the same way with oversaturated green like in 0.85.1). So using native decoding without dxva scaling is still broken (at least for my setup).

Interesting, I'll try to reproduce that here. Could you please double check with the next build another time? Thanks.

Originally Posted by hannes69

With 0.85.2 GPU load with native DXVA decoding is about 0 - 30% HIGHER than copyback decoding (depending on scaling algorithm!)

GPU load is expected to be a bit higher with AMD GPUs because the GPU is used to convert the DXVA2 output to something madVR can handle. When using copyback, the CPU is used to do the conversion, so that saves a bit GPU performance, but CPU consumption should be higher. Furthermore, the copyback can be a bottleneck for fast framerates.

Originally Posted by truexfan81

Madshi
this is my cpu
and now that i have complained about it, it appears to be acting like when you take a car to the mechanic, it just won't make that same sound or in this case, a slide-show. i will report back later if it starts doing it again.

FWIW, if your CPU doesn't support SSE4.1 then madVR is not doing copyback internally, so the behaviour is different to what CUDA/DXVA-copyback in LAV Video Decoder do. In theory native DXVA should perform better in your situation, but with a small hit on chroma image quality.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Does that imply that Jinc might be less demanding on nvidia boards someday in the future?

Maybe, or maybe not, I don't know.

Originally Posted by phoenixxl

When Madvr crashed earlier today , I noticed this:

However , the correct value should be this :

Please consider revisiting the code that determines said value.

The crash analyzer asks the OS default, not the current user default. Anyway, that's not really a very important information...

Originally Posted by aufkrawall

What if you watch a movie in native resolution? Then it will use the selected chroma scaling method (by default bilinear), right?.

Correct.

Originally Posted by aufkrawall

If true, that's why I think an option to select DXVA chroma scaling for such situations would be a good idea since it looks better than bilinear and doesn't require (m)any ressources.

It probably doesn't require many resources on Intel GPUs. But the situation is different with AMD and NVidia, I think.

Originally Posted by ajp_anton

Why? Isn't chroma upscaled all the way up to full resolution (and converted to RGB) by DXVA? If the uses chooses DXVA, why change it when the luma scaling factor happens to be 1?

Imagine a user has DXVA activated for luma upscaling, and Catmull-Rom for luma downscaling. When the scaling factor is 0.9, madVR will use Catmull-Rom for luma, and the selected chroma algorithm for chroma. When the scaling factor is 1.1, madVR will use DXVA scaling, which covers both chroma and luma. When the scaling factor is exactly 1.0, madVR does not scale luma at all, so neither the "luma upscaling" nor the "luma downscaling" settings have any meaning.

Originally Posted by 6233638

Madshi, I've just seen a new bug introduced in 0.85.2

If you are downscaling with DXVA2 and switch to anything else, it results in a green image. I have to switch to a non-DXVA2 scaling algorithm a second time to restore the correct colours.

Should be fixed in the next build.

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Madshi, how do I submit a freeze report? I'm getting freezes using the NVS 5200M in my laptop with MadVR (no issues using the Intel HD 4000 with MadVR, or either card with EVR).

Does just the image freeze? Or the media player user interface, too? In the first case a madVR debug log may help. In the latter case press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Break to get a freeze report saved to your desktop.

Originally Posted by vivan

DragonQ, try to untick "use a separate device for presentation" in madVR settings. This happens (image freezes after some time, not madVR itself) on all Optimus systems, when using dGPU.

Interesting, I didn't know that "use a separate device for presentation" had any specific effect on Optimus systems. I've no personal experience with Optimus. I imagine the "use a separate device for presentation" could run into trouble if the OS decided to switch which GPUs it uses behind madVR's back. Could that be happening here? Isn't there any way to force the OS to use one specific GPU? Maybe you can totally disable one of the GPUs?

Originally Posted by khanmein

bro, r u goin to release new update for madFlac?

What for? It works perfectly (for me at least), so why releasing a new update? The only thing missing would be x64 support, but since madVR is x86 only, too, that doesn't really matter so much.

Originally Posted by khanmein

should i tick delay playback start after seeking, too?

That's your decision. It will make seeks slower, but might avoid temporary stuttering after seeks. Just try it out and choose which way you like it better.

Originally Posted by pandy

@madshi

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1604267#post1604267

Thank You in Advance madshi

Please do not bump your posts. This is highly unwanted in this thread.

Originally Posted by egur

I'd like to ask for a feature:
Make MadVR power aware - have a combo box for selecting scaler used when laptop is on batteries.
Values can be either :
* DXVA scaler
* Bilinear (D3D)
* Same as connected to AC power.

Or just duplicate the existing propery pages for selecting the scaler(s) in power savings mode.

As for defaults, I'd rather have DXVA used for power savings mode, but maybe other people have different ideas.

Yeah. Some users have also asked for separate scaling settings for SD and HD content, or for different video framerates. I do have a solution for all this in mind, but it will require some deeper changes in the settings dialog, so it's not very high on my priority list right now. There are some more pressing things I need to work on first.

Originally Posted by Heuer

Regarding my sound break-up issue with 85.2.

I tried running it on a different machine (i5, W7, MPC-HC+LAV+madVR+Reclock) and this time there was sound but no picture. (It always amazed me that this setup would run happily run on a machine without a discrete GPU, but it did for most material without crashing). I then tried downloading the 85.2 zip file from your 'previous versions' page rather than the header on page 1 of this thread. It worked perfectly so not sure if there is a problem with one of your zip files or links?

That is quite weird. Maybe the zip you download was damaged somehow? But there are checksums in a zip which should make the unzip tool complain if there's any damage. So I don't really understand what happened to you.

Originally Posted by cca

Since my main PC died (lightning ...) I am trying to use my humble Atom netbook for media purposes, it does have HDMI. madVR is unusable in it I'm afraid. DXVA scaling results in out of order frames for a couple of seconds and eventually a BSOD.

Ouch. Sounds like a GPU driver bug to me. Maybe with 6233638's suggestions you can make Bilinear work with madVR?

Originally Posted by DragonQ

If you can only have anti-ringing on either chroma or luma (for performance reasons), which is more useful?

It might depend on the source material, but I'd say generally luma scaling is more important than chroma scaling.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by omarank

Hi Madshi, will it be possible to show the current video levels when we change the source white and black levels, as pointed out by Leeperry earlier?

What do you mean exactly? I'm not sure...

Originally Posted by omarank

I also wanted to know what does the new contrast control do exactly?

It's supposed to stretch the grayscale away from the middle or nearer to the middle, while keeping peak black and peak white identical. You can read more here:

http://tutes.tonebytone.com/ImageMagick/Enhance/SigmoidalContrast/index.php

However, madVR always sets the midpoint at 0.5.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

If you can only have anti-ringing on either chroma or luma (for performance reasons), which is more useful?

It really depends on the type of content you're watching, and what scaling algorithms you're using.

Some of the Luma algorithms look absolutely fine without the anti-ringing filter. There's less ringing with Mitchell-Netravali or SoftCubic, even compared to Jinc, Lanczos or Spline with the anti-ringing filter enabled.

They aren't nearly as sharp though.


With my preference for sharper chroma, there are definitely cases where anti-ringing would be more noticeable with that. (it's usually a smaller performance hit as well)

If you watch a lot of animated content with large flat areas of colour, I'd probably go with chroma, and a smooth luma resampler.

If not, or if you're using one of the sharper luma resamplers, I'd say it's probably more beneficial with luma.


For example:

1. Bicubic 75 Chroma, Lanczos 3 AR Luma
2. Bicubic 75 AR Chroma, Lanczos 3 Luma
3. SoftCubic 100 Chroma, Lanczos 3 AR Luma
4. Bicubic 75 AR Chroma, Mitchell-Netravali Luma

1 shows the most ringing, because the ringing here is primarily chroma. (note: this pattern actually has some ringing encoded in it - Bicubic 75 is not usually that bad for ringing)
3 shows why SoftCubic is not a great idea for Chroma. It's too soft, and causes the colour to bleed out the edges, resulting in soft edges and dark bands between the colours.
4 shows the least ringing, but also has the lowest rendering times of all four.

1. Lanczos 3
2. Lanczos 3 AR
3. Mitchell-Netravali
4. SoftCubic 80

Here, the results are focused on Luma scaling. You can see that if you are using Lanczos 3 (or Jinc/Spline) the anti-ringing filter makes a huge difference.
But you will also see that if you switch to Mitchell-Netravali without the anti-ringing filter, there's still less ringing than Lanczos 3 AR, and it runs a lot faster.
And if you were to use SoftCubic 80, there's almost no ringing at all, and it helps reduce/mask the aliasing and compression.

But as you start using scaling algorithms that have less ringing, you see that the image isn't nearly as sharp. I actually find this to be beneficial with most commercial DVDs, which tend to already have their high frequency detail filtered out (so you're not actually losing any detail) and have ringing/compression artefacts encoded into the video.
If you're watching 720p content, it might be too soft though.

For what it's worth, I only recommend SoftCubic 70/80 for Luma. If you don't want it that soft, Mitchell-Netravali is usually a better choice than SoftCubic 50/60.


Depending on your preference for sharpness, and the type of content you're watching though, the best compromise might be to use Mitchell-Netravali for Chroma, which has minimal ringing without needing the AR filter, and is reasonably sharp (there is some loss of brightness/saturation, but it's not too bad) which could let you use a sharper luma resampler with the anti-ringing filter enabled.

As good as the anti-ringing filter is, I'm still not sure that I like using Lanczos 3 AR for luma scaling though. It's just too sharp for the content I watch, and there is still some residual ringing left in the image. Jinc 3 AR scaling has similar levels of residual ringing (perhaps a little more) but has other benefits such as considerably lower aliasing, which I feel makes that trade-off worthwhile. Jinc is very demanding on hardware though.

[omarank]

Originally Posted by madshi

What do you mean exactly? I'm not sure...

All right, I will explain with an example. If I change the source black level from 0 to say +10 using some custom keyboard shortcut, madVR will change the video level from 16-235 to maybe 20-235. I was wondering if madVR could also display this information of current video levels "20-235" along with the increment "+10".

BTW, now I have understood how the new contrast control works. However, I don't clearly understand when should this contrast control be used?

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Use a sharper Luma scaler with AR, and use a softer chroma scaler which doesn't necessarily need AR. IMHO anyway.

Cool, that's what I had initially - Bicubic + Jinc3 AR.

Originally Posted by madshi

Does just the image freeze? Or the media player user interface, too? In the first case a madVR debug log may help. In the latter case press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Break to get a freeze report saved to your desktop.

Um...I think it's just the image but I can't remember right now.

Originally Posted by madshi

Interesting, I didn't know that "use a separate device for presentation" had any specific effect on Optimus systems. I've no personal experience with Optimus. I imagine the "use a separate device for presentation" could run into trouble if the OS decided to switch which GPUs it uses behind madVR's back. Could that be happening here? Isn't there any way to force the OS to use one specific GPU? Maybe you can totally disable one of the GPUs?

I doubt it's to do with switching GPUs - I set the nVidia Control Panel to use the nVidia GPU for MPC-HC (after renaming it to "MPC-HC player.exe") and GPU-Z clearly shows that the nVidia GPU is being used and not the Intel IGP.

[ajp_anton]

Originally Posted by madshi

Imagine a user has DXVA activated for luma upscaling, and Catmull-Rom for luma downscaling. When the scaling factor is 0.9, madVR will use Catmull-Rom for luma, and the selected chroma algorithm for chroma. When the scaling factor is 1.1, madVR will use DXVA scaling, which covers both chroma and luma. When the scaling factor is exactly 1.0, madVR does not scale luma at all, so neither the "luma upscaling" nor the "luma downscaling" settings have any meaning.

So how would you use DXVA scaling *always* for everything?
You should add a separate checkbox in the chroma upscale page to "use DXVA when possible" (meaning every time there is NOT a non-DXVA luma scaler active) (assuming you can't use DXVA for chroma only).