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Old 21st December 2015, 18:13   #34781  |  Link
madshi
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You like it better than "sharpen edges"?
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Old 21st December 2015, 18:32   #34782  |  Link
retrue
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I don't think there is "the bug you are talking about". I think we're talking about 2 different bugs: One bug is windowed vs fullscreen mode, especially when using e.g. Catmull-Rom upscaling. The other bug has to do with vobsub subtitles when using DXVA scaling. The latter bug should be fixed in the next madVR build. Probably the first bug will still be there, though. And it might not be a bug in madVR, but a problem with your GPU driver or hardware. Anyway, it's worth trying the next madVR build, and then checking which problems are still there and which are gone.
Thank you very much for fixing the vobsub bug when using DXVA scaling.
I am using the last drivers for my graphics card.
About the frequent black screens problem, I don't think it is a hardware or driver problem on my side because I don't have this problem with older madVR versions. I think until madVR version 0.89.6 it worked well. In the last madVR versions I have got a lot of black screens. Let's hope this new version is more stable for me.
And thanks again.
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Old 21st December 2015, 18:54   #34783  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What is the point of what?
I don't know why a soft telecine DVD remux oder vob is treated as progressive but played back at 29p by default.

that looks pointless to me.
Quote:
If who or what switches? Do you mean if you manually switch madVR to true interlaced or hard telecined?
a soft telecine source is flagged progressive that's why deinterlacing isn't used. so we just get 30 FPS with 23p in it. so even if the same stream is switching between telecine modes the playback is not correct because it will not be deinterlaced/IVTC'd.

Quote:
Your whole post is really confusing to me. I don't really understand at all what you're asking. Here: Are you asking why madVR doesn't fix the frame interval? Or the decoder? Or the splitter? Or the original video encoder?
I don't know what part should change his behaviour.
but playing a 23p stream as 29p without deinterlancing is just wrong.
madVR sees or at least can see the repeat flags so it should use deinterlancing, IVTC or just change the refreshrate/frame interval to 23p if doesn't change to interlace mode.

i don't know if this should be done by the source filter, decoder or madVR.

lavfilter software is outputting a 23p stream with repeat flags and I don't think there is anything wrong with it but it still says the source is progressive.
Quote:
What do you mean with "gets the 3:2 pattern"? And how do you know what the deinterlacer "gets" - since DXVA doesn't tell anybody anything about what it's doing inside. We never know whether it's in film mode or video mode, actually it's usually a pixel-by-pixel decision in most DXVA deinterlacing implementations, I think. And what kind of bug are you talking about? A bug in the GPU DXVA deinterlacing algorithm? Or a bug in madVR?
I just counted the frames by using control + arrow key.
with a soft telecine source, every frame is just repeated unlike 3:2 hard telecine.

I don't know if the deinterlancer knows it is 3:2 soft telecine or it just gets 2:2 from madVR, no clue. but the output is not 59p.
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Old 21st December 2015, 20:08   #34784  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You like it better than "sharpen edges"?
Nope, but I like it a lot more than Lumasharpen or crispen edges.
Sharpen edges is still a keeper for me, however it's still more expensive. There was at least the report of one user who couldn't use sharpen edges with his GPU, while AS was fast enough.

I'm aware that you don't necessarily share the opinion that everything must be open, which is totally fine as I agree that intellectual property should be valued. But is there a chance that you explain at some point how sharpen edges works? It seems quite unique to me and could be really helpful for e.g. ReShade.
Feel free to say "no".
Adaptive Sharpen is great for games too, as temporal AA seems to blur in gamma light and a slight birghtness increase due to sharpen might be even more correct.
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Old 21st December 2015, 20:33   #34785  |  Link
KoD
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.19 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added support for display peak luminance values of 265, 180 and 120 nits
* HDR: gamut mapping is now always on, even if calibration control is disabled
* fixed: DVD/Blu-Ray subs were positioned incorrectly when using DXVA scaling
* fixed: DVD aspect ratio wasn't always shown correctly when using MPC-HC
* fixed: gamma processing and brightness control didn't work for HDR content
* fixed: DXVA decoding + deint -> refresh rate sometimes didn't switch
* repeated frames are displayed (again) when smooth motion FRC is enabled
Thank you, madshi! I can confirm the issues on the sample files I provided are all fixed.
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Old 21st December 2015, 21:55   #34786  |  Link
py930828
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What is the point of what?


If who or what switches? Do you mean if you manually switch madVR to true interlaced or hard telecined?


Your whole post is really confusing to me. I don't really understand at all what you're asking. Here: Are you asking why madVR doesn't fix the frame interval? Or the decoder? Or the splitter? Or the original video encoder?


What do you mean with "gets the 3:2 pattern"? And how do you know what the deinterlacer "gets" - since DXVA doesn't tell anybody anything about what it's doing inside. We never know whether it's in film mode or video mode, actually it's usually a pixel-by-pixel decision in most DXVA deinterlacing implementations, I think. And what kind of bug are you talking about? A bug in the GPU DXVA deinterlacing algorithm? Or a bug in madVR?


Some media players have options for delaying audio, e.g. MPC-HC/BE.


The bottleneck is not the rendering, so it doesn't matter if we delay until the decoder or renderer queue is full. The bottleneck is "decoding" (or rather sending frames by the source). So any sort of delay doesn't seem to work for this analog source filter you're using.


EVR/VMR9 simply receive one frame, process it, render it. No queues involved, usually. It's a very simple design, and it works well in this specific situation. madVR is designed to queue frames and render many of them in advance. The whole madVR rendering logic depends on having full queues. If the queues are near empty, all sorts of bad things start to happen. It's a completely different design.


I don't think there is "the bug you are talking about". I think we're talking about 2 different bugs: One bug is windowed vs fullscreen mode, especially when using e.g. Catmull-Rom upscaling. The other bug has to do with vobsub subtitles when using DXVA scaling. The latter bug should be fixed in the next madVR build. Probably the first bug will still be there, though. And it might not be a bug in madVR, but a problem with your GPU driver or hardware. Anyway, it's worth trying the next madVR build, and then checking which problems are still there and which are gone.


Are you using native DXVA decoding, maybe? Forced film mode only supports copyback DXVA or software decoding (or CUVID or QuickSync). Also not all pixel formats and bitdepths are supported.


There are no specific requirements that I'm aware of. Make sure you use the latest LAV *nightly* build, but even if you don't, HDR files should still look "ok".

Please make a screenshot of the madVR Ctrl+J OSD when playing a HDR video. Don't attach it to this forum, but upload it to some image uploading/sharing host.


Presenting frames takes one full VSync inveral in fullscreen mode on your PC. I'm not sure why. There's a setting for "max number of prerendered frames" (I don't remember the exact name) in your GPU control panel somewhere. Make sure it's set to application controlled. Generally pretty much everything in your GPU driver's control panel should be set to application controlled, so that madVR is able to choose its own setting instead of being overwritten by the GPU control panel settings.


There's a known bug in the way XySubFilter and madVR communicate. This will be fixed in a future XySubFilter + madVR version.

Hi Madshi, thank you for replying me, I set the nvidia control as everything is set by the 3D application. It still doesn't work out. However, should I add MADVR into NVIDIA control panel? Since so far, I only set MPC-HC run by NVIDIA graphics card but not MADVR, I don't know what application I should choose to put into the control panel.

Also, I have the other question. I like to watch high quality source movie, and I don't watch anime. Most of my movie sources are blueray, so what recommend setting do you suggest me to set on? Currently I have

chroma upscaling:super-xbr sharpness:100 AR+SuperRes filter
image downscaling:Catmull-Rom AR+linear light
image doubling:none
image upscaling:Jinc AR+LINEAR LIGHT
upscaling refinement: SuperRes

I simply copy what some other user's setting since that these setting really confused me. It would be really great if you can give me some of your valuable suggestion.
Thank you for your time.

Last edited by py930828; 21st December 2015 at 22:02.
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Old 21st December 2015, 22:49   #34787  |  Link
Barnahadnagy
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I for one like Adaptive Sharpen a lot, tho pretty much only in image processing and not upscaling refinement (and only when no upscaling is done). There are sources where Sharpen Edges is better, but overall I'm usually rolling with AS + Thin Edges (this thing is godly).
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Old 21st December 2015, 23:08   #34788  |  Link
har3inger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by py930828 View Post
Hi Madshi, thank you for replying me, I set the nvidia control as everything is set by the 3D application. It still doesn't work out. However, should I add MADVR into NVIDIA control panel? Since so far, I only set MPC-HC run by NVIDIA graphics card but not MADVR, I don't know what application I should choose to put into the control panel.

Also, I have the other question. I like to watch high quality source movie, and I don't watch anime. Most of my movie sources are blueray, so what recommend setting do you suggest me to set on? Currently I have

chroma upscaling:super-xbr sharpness:100 AR+SuperRes filter
image downscaling:Catmull-Rom AR+linear light
image doubling:none
image upscaling:Jinc AR+LINEAR LIGHT
upscaling refinement: SuperRes

I simply copy what some other user's setting since that these setting really confused me. It would be really great if you can give me some of your valuable suggestion.
Thank you for your time.
Don't use linear light for upscaling. Jinc AR is fine. If you're watching 1080p videos on 1080p TV, this setting isn't ever used anyways. The same goes for upscaling refinement SuperRes. If not, use the image doubling options to use nnedi3 (64 neurons is best, 32 is a compromise but still good, 16 isn't great unless for anime) or superxbr 100.

Chroma upscaling SuperRes probably shouldn't be used for now, as it has some issues with dark lines at edges of colored areas.

Personally I prefer SXBR 125 without AR checked for chroma. It rings a lot less than with AR checked, but still looks better than jinc AR. Whether you like this more depends on what you like.

If you have performance to spare, you can use nnedi3 for chroma upscaling. It's generally pretty wasteful, and one of the last things you should consider turning on when you have performance to spare.


@madshi: the OSD font size (and maybe the font itself) changed a lot with the latest version. Is this intentional?

Last edited by har3inger; 21st December 2015 at 23:11.
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Old 21st December 2015, 23:51   #34789  |  Link
Georgel
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@Madshi

Please, include an option to disable dithering completely.

Every single type of dithering is critically affecting all anime materials.

I can understand how it works wonders with movie and real life videos, but with anime it is just adding noise over a surface that was never meant to have noise (having different colored pixels on a smooth skin surface, glitter in areas where there should be 0 darkness)

I know that it would be hard to modify dithering, but I was watching fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya and there was bad noise everywhere, the rip is q16 off BD and is 1920X1080 done very good.

Or am I missing something, and dithering with error diffusion 2 should be the lowest noise of all?

I am still learning, but I know that for the moment I get lots of noise, even with error diffusion 2 with only luma and with or without changing dither every frame.
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Old 21st December 2015, 23:57   #34790  |  Link
har3inger
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@Madshi

Please, include an option to disable dithering completely.

Every single type of dithering is critically affecting all anime materials.

I can understand how it works wonders with movie and real life videos, but with anime it is just adding noise over a surface that was never meant to have noise (having different colored pixels on a smooth skin surface, glitter in areas where there should be 0 darkness)

I know that it would be hard to modify dithering, but I was watching fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya and there was bad noise everywhere, the rip is q16 off BD and is 1920X1080 done very good.

Or am I missing something, and dithering with error diffusion 2 should be the lowest noise of all?

I am still learning, but I know that for the moment I get lots of noise, even with error diffusion 2 with only luma and with or without changing dither every frame.
The source probably has a lot of source dither/grain/noise. This may be the producer's intention. Unless your screen bit depth is set really low, any of madvr's dithering algorithms shouldn't add much noise at all.

You can already turn off dither in MadVR. Rendering > Dithering > None. Use that, and compare to see if there's more or less noise. However, using no dither is always a terrible idea. You get banding and posterization artifacts.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 00:13   #34791  |  Link
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Hi Madshi, if you choose "use half frame rate for deinterlacing", the frame time on the OSD does not change. This is with DXVA deinterlacing.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 01:37   #34792  |  Link
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Not really. madVR can work ok with just e.g. 4 frames, too. But the frames must be coming in reliably from the source filter. If the decoder queue gets down to 0 or 1 frames once in a while, bad things will happen.
Which is why I think if there was an option to delay playback until decoder queue is full, then there be no problem. This is a capture source. If this capture source is to be reliable to capture at full framerate all the time, the computer must be fast enough and compress it fast enough, else there be drop frames. I can trust my computer can capture fine and that once the decoder queue is full, would stay full even if it can't deliver frames faster than realtime.

Edit: I just realized, why isn't the render queue delayed until full? When I first start playback, it isn't like the render queue is full then slowly goes down to 0-2. It's 0-2 from the start.

Last edited by Aktan; 22nd December 2015 at 02:18.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 01:53   #34793  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
@Madshi

Please, include an option to disable dithering completely.

Every single type of dithering is critically affecting all anime materials.

I can understand how it works wonders with movie and real life videos, but with anime it is just adding noise over a surface that was never meant to have noise (having different colored pixels on a smooth skin surface, glitter in areas where there should be 0 darkness)

I know that it would be hard to modify dithering, but I was watching fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya and there was bad noise everywhere, the rip is q16 off BD and is 1920X1080 done very good.

Or am I missing something, and dithering with error diffusion 2 should be the lowest noise of all?

I am still learning, but I know that for the moment I get lots of noise, even with error diffusion 2 with only luma and with or without changing dither every frame.
you can disable dithering by selecting "none".

but dithering is way more important for anime than real life source. dithering prevents banding and banding is the biggest issue in anime BDs.
even mastering should use dithering and adding noise in animes isn't that rare.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 02:55   #34794  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
@Madshi

Please, include an option to disable dithering completely.

Every single type of dithering is critically affecting all anime materials.

I can understand how it works wonders with movie and real life videos, but with anime it is just adding noise over a surface that was never meant to have noise (having different colored pixels on a smooth skin surface, glitter in areas where there should be 0 darkness)

I know that it would be hard to modify dithering, but I was watching fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya and there was bad noise everywhere, the rip is q16 off BD and is 1920X1080 done very good.

Or am I missing something, and dithering with error diffusion 2 should be the lowest noise of all?

I am still learning, but I know that for the moment I get lots of noise, even with error diffusion 2 with only luma and with or without changing dither every frame.
Ordered Dithering is the lowest noise option and it is much better for Anime than rounding (None). Use Ordered Dithering, turn off "change dither for every frame", and leave on "use colored noise" for the lowest visible noise configuration. Personally I like both options off, colored noise is worse than luma noise, but the difference is subtle.

I almost always watch Anime myself.

I would be very surprised if you could see the noise from 8-bit ordered dithering with "change dither for every frame" disabled. I cannot. The noise you observed in Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya was probably not due to dithering, you don't see it in every source do you?

Please do not use "None", it makes me sad when people disable dithering.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 06:10   #34795  |  Link
py930828
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Don't use linear light for upscaling. Jinc AR is fine. If you're watching 1080p videos on 1080p TV, this setting isn't ever used anyways. The same goes for upscaling refinement SuperRes. If not, use the image doubling options to use nnedi3 (64 neurons is best, 32 is a compromise but still good, 16 isn't great unless for anime) or superxbr 100.

Chroma upscaling SuperRes probably shouldn't be used for now, as it has some issues with dark lines at edges of colored areas.

Personally I prefer SXBR 125 without AR checked for chroma. It rings a lot less than with AR checked, but still looks better than jinc AR. Whether you like this more depends on what you like.

If you have performance to spare, you can use nnedi3 for chroma upscaling. It's generally pretty wasteful, and one of the last things you should consider turning on when you have performance to spare.


@madshi: the OSD font size (and maybe the font itself) changed a lot with the latest version. Is this intentional?
Thank you for your reply, it was really kind to give me suggestions. Could you and Madshi please solve my major problem which is about the frame drop? @Madshi

These two pictures, when I was in windows mode, the render and present queue is full, but if I am in fullscreen, the queue drop to 2, and the present time is really really long. My MPC-HC and MADVR are all in newest version. This problem really annoying me,and I couldn't enjoy watch movies since the frame drop significantly randomly. I would be really appreciated if I could get rid of this problem.

If anyone know how to solve this problem, please, please please help me out!!

@Madshi


@Madshi, I found the problem!!! The reason why the render queue and the present queue drop is because of DX11, if I set it to DX9 in "general setting", the queue will get back to full, and the presenting time goes back from 16ms to 2ms(in full screen case). However, there are two problems that I have found so far:

1. In DX9 mode, I can't use the exclusive mode since once I able exclusive mode, the full screen is just going to be black screen.

2. Instead of the increasing of dropped frame in DX11 mode, DX9 mode increases presentation glitches a lot, one completely movie might have 200 more presentation glitches.

Again, just a reminder, I am using a laptop with 3630QM+970M, do you think this can be a problem?

This might be a problem that I hope can be fixed in the next version.
Also, could you please tell me what is the benefit of setting it to DX11? Does the graphics looks better or it's mean to be more efficient?

There are some screen shots that might give you some information
Madshi, hope this can be helpful and not boring you.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by py930828; 22nd December 2015 at 11:11. Reason: Find the reason!!!!!
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Old 22nd December 2015, 07:08   #34796  |  Link
Nullack
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Madshi can you please accommodate GUI experiences with UHD resolutions and high dpi fonts? For example, the CTRL J stats render is unviewable at in high DPI (e.g. 300%) and UHD 4K resolutions. At the moment Im having to take a screenshot then zoom in to see the render stats.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 09:18   #34797  |  Link
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Madshi can you please accommodate GUI experiences with UHD resolutions and high dpi fonts? For example, the CTRL J stats render is unviewable at in high DPI (e.g. 300%) and UHD 4K resolutions. At the moment Im having to take a screenshot then zoom in to see the render stats.
I actually thought he had done that in this version.
I was just about to write up a post asking about the GUI changes because I find them difficult to read on my 1080p screen.
With this build I'm now seeing a big proportionally spaced and anti-aliased font (with bad keming) vs the old monospaced bitmap font.
It's worse in a window because the new stats now scale with the window size and get a lot smaller than the old ones.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 11:02   #34798  |  Link
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I've no idea if that's possible. And if it worked I've no idea if that would screw up things like calibration and stuff. Might be worth trying at some point, although I don't know if the OS/GPU driver even gives me access to DDC/DI. But this is not going to happen any time soon.
It's possible (and i use it more then decade already - to increase monitor luminance on the fly to view video and pictures ), but, AFAIK, there is no standard user mode API to access this feature under Win platform.

>And if it worked I've no idea if that would screw up things like calibration and stuff.
Are the change of backlight screw up calibration?

>But this is not going to happen any time soon.
And complete realization is not need (in first) - minimum adaptation is
1. Set max and min luminances of monitor in config screen instead of only one value. (And third, default luminance value - to set it on exit).
2. Write code to call external executables and pass there stream luminance(or min/max monitor value if stream luminance out of monitor range), as parameter in execution point where luminance is changed - and assume this value is current monitor luminance
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Old 22nd December 2015, 11:32   #34799  |  Link
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I have a Samsung UN50JU6500 UHD TV and every time MadVR changes my refresh rate to 23Hz, my TV gets kicked off of 4:4:4 at 1080p. At 1080p 60hz I can do 4:4:4 or full RGB without a problem, but when it changes to any different refresh rate, my TV no longer stays in PC mode (4:4:4). Its immediately noticeable because when it fails to pass 4:4:4 all of the image customization (RGB / White Balance) become available.

Anyone have an idea why? Does my TV only support 4:4:4 at 60hz and no other refresh rates or could this be a setting in MadVR?

Last edited by enphenate; 22nd December 2015 at 11:37.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 11:48   #34800  |  Link
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Anyone have an idea why? Does my TV only support 4:4:4 at 60hz and no other refresh rates or could this be a setting in MadVR?
It's Samsung "feature"
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