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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:17   #56741  |  Link
SamuriHL
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Not really jumping into the card debate too far, but, I will tell you that coming from the 1060 6gb going to a 2070, FOR ME, was a really good decision. The 1060 I did have to compromise on settings that I personally did not want to really compromise on, however, that being said, it was very capable. It's without a doubt the lowest card I'd recommend. These 16xx cards don't seem like a good bargain for madvr. You'd be better off with a 1070 or 1080 IMO.

As for AMD, I've no modern experience there. AMD burned a bridge with me in their 5xxx series of cards and I've not really bothered looking back as nVidia has served me well for the past many years. But, that being said, AMD is getting more aggressive so I wouldn't necessarily count them out. I do agree on hardware decoding and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on this, that hardware encoding on AMD cards is also behind nVidia. That's not directly related to madvr necessarily, but, something to consider.

My $0.02
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:07   #56742  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Getting extra pop from 100 nit highlights on a projector has negligible returns in its own right. User feedback drove some of the decision making.
Of course if we accept that the SDR is equal to 100 nits then you are probably right. I don't think it makes sense to use the original roll-off on displays with limited luminance, in fact the result would be worse. I can also clearly see the potential benefits of using dynamic target nits in situations where the limited range needs to be exploited in the best possible way. What happens is that today most TVs can reach around 300 nits, so taking into account the above, and the name of the thread in which the tone mapping development is taking place, it may be time to assume that madVR tone mapping is being optimized for low nits projectors, with all the limitations that this implies for more brilliant displays.

And in the same way I can easily agree with you that unlike madVR, the HDR10+ curve has not been developed with SDR 100 nits in mind.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 13:13   #56743  |  Link
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Some projectors can approach 300 nits, but they are getting far less when calibrated. Raising the brightness that high also raises the black floor, so it is better to get as much contrast as possible on a projector with HDR content rather than attempting to max out peak brightness.

Maybe a separate curve option would benefit HDR output.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 13:15   #56744  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Do you ever read what people write before writing nonsense? This is EXACTLY the point I was making. That for some people who don't use all the features and are ready to compromise on PQ, a 1060 is fine. And for others, who use all the features and don't want to compromise on PQ, a 1080ti can be just enough.
the discussion starts because people tent to claim that you need a high end GPU for people that ask for scaling not tonemapping.
it goes as far as people claim for X you need a 1080 or better even through the exact claimed option can be done with a 1060.

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Here D3D11 copyback is at least 15-20% slower than D3D11 native. It's even more obvious when measuring files with MadMeasureHDR. It takes 10-15mn in D3D11 native with my 1080ti, at least 20-25mn in copyback, and more than 30mn with my iGPU on the MBP 13" 2018.
measuring files is a bad comparison there is only that much PCIe bandwidth if you run out of it madVR has to wait and that's what's happing here.

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Of course it is possible to shift them without cropping them, I do it all the time. I tried cropping and it doesn't make much of a difference. In any case, you need to test with 1.78 pictures otherwise it looks like you're fine and then you play Pacific Rim in HDR and you don't understand why your frames are dropping. That's why I don't bother cropping the frames. Whatever settings I choose have to work with 1.78 content, so even if I could save a few ms with cropping wide ARs it wouldn't help my 1.78 titles.
at least i'm not alone on this anymore...
In any case, I only mention the black bars detection because it's a common software feature that requires copyback. I need copyback for UHD Bluray Menus in jRiver, so black bars isn't really relevant.



Quote:
Good for you. It's not meaningless here. That's why I suggest you test a 1080ti with my OS and then report back, instead of claiming that there is no difference.
Quote:
And what difference do you make between "a couple of ms" and "2ms"? That's exactly what I said.
if a 960 can do it this fast a 1080 ti is supposed to be much faster. that why i say that.

Quote:
A lot of people brag about their lower GPU, but they either don't use all the features or they compromise on quality. Or they don't notice frame drops.
doesn't that count for every GPU? if someone asked for a upscaling 1080p to 2160p with decent settings he didn't ask for a 2080 ti here.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 14:23   #56745  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the discussion starts because people tent to claim that you need a high end GPU for people that ask for scaling not tonemapping.
it goes as far as people claim for X you need a 1080 or better even through the exact claimed option can be done with a 1060.
Except that this is NOT what happened in this instance. Someone asks for a recommendation for a GPU WITHOUT saying specifically what they intend to do with it (yet mention 4K content, which means HDR, so possibly HDR dynamic tonemapping). So lots of people reply saying that a 1060 is more than enough. That's not a helpful reply. They should *first* ask what the user plans to do with it, including which features (3D LUT? HDR dynamic tonemapping? Need for software decoding?), instead of starting to brag about their low-end card being more than enough to meet whatever limited use they have for it.

My point was not to say that *everyone* needs a 2080ti. I don't need one.

My point was to say that while some people can be perfectly happy with a 1060, they will quickly reach its limits if they want to do everything that madVR offers, especially if they need software decoding only features either from madVR or from other software or want to use HDR dynamic tonemapping.

I couldn't care less that many people are happy with their 960 or 1060 or whatever. I'm only saying that if you want the best PQ that madVR has to offer and want to use all the features, that's most likely not enough given that I meet some limitations with a 1080ti.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
measuring files is a bad comparison there is only that much PCIe bandwidth if you run out of it madVR has to wait and that's what's happing here.
Please read my reply. The difference is 15-20% here, and it's EVEN MORE OBVIOUS when measuring files. It would really help if you could read each reply before writing back more nonsense.

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if a 960 can do it this fast a 1080 ti is supposed to be much faster. that why i say that.
And my point is that it's not the case here. A 3D LUT takes a few ms here even with a 1080ti. This is why I suggested that you test a 1080ti, using all the options that I mentioned before coming up with all your nonsense.

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doesn't that count for every GPU? if someone asked for a upscaling 1080p to 2160p with decent settings he didn't ask for a 2080 ti here.
Yes, and this has nothing to do with my point, I never said a 2080ti was necessary. The OP also mentioned playing 4K content, which means HDR as far as commercial content is concerned. Read above.
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Last edited by Manni; 2nd July 2019 at 14:30.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 15:16   #56746  |  Link
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Maybe you two can start a new thread where you constantly post each others comments over and over.

We get it you disagree.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 15:41   #56747  |  Link
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they can disagree to their hearts content on the general thread.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769
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Old 2nd July 2019, 16:19   #56748  |  Link
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Hello, I would really appreciate some help getting my HDR working in Madvr if anyone don't mind helping.

Both Madvr OSD are in HDR but the video it self aren't. D3D11 are also only in 8 bit not 10 bit and it says HDR "Unknown properties". Also Fullscreen Exclusive doesn't turn on either with HDR atm.
When comparing the exact same scene from Youtube in HDR, the Youtube video are A lot brighter which is also why I don't think the HDR in working in my Potplayer+Madvr.

OSD (Tab)
OSD (Ctrl+j)

Settings:
Identification
Properties
Calibration
Color&Gamma
HDR

Player: Potplayer


Side question: I've keybind zooming/blackbars Profiles but when when switching zooming profiles the whole window changes size not just the video.

Could I maybe run a Fullscreen command after zooming to restore it to fullscreen? But I can't find any Madvr commands.

Video example


(Sorry for spamming, but would really like to get the HDR working.)

Last edited by mambans; 5th July 2019 at 04:10.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 16:51   #56749  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Except that this is NOT what happened in this instance. Someone asks for a recommendation for a GPU WITHOUT saying specifically what they intend to do with it (yet mention 4K content, which means HDR, so possibly HDR dynamic tonemapping). So lots of people reply saying that a 1060 is more than enough. That's not a helpful reply. They should *first* ask what the user plans to do with it, including which features (3D LUT? HDR dynamic tonemapping? Need for software decoding?), instead of starting to brag about their low-end card being more than enough to meet whatever limited use they have for it.
Quote:
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What gpu should i buy to play 1080p -> 4k sources and some 4k playback on madvr with decent (medium) settings??
did i miss something?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 18:05   #56750  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
did i miss something?
Yes, you did.

The OP in the part you quoted said that they also wanted to play 4K content.

99% of the time that means HDR content (UHD Bluray), unless they are only interested in demo files.

Before making suggestions that a 1060 was more than enough, no one asked the OP if they planned to send HDR passthrough to the display/PJ (we don't even know the screen size/sitting distance, which will impact how much processing is needed) or if they wanted to use the HDR dynamic tonemapping with pixel shaders to play their 4K content. And in connection with that, no one asked the OP if they wanted to use any feature that needed software decoding, or if they planned to use madVR for calibration as well, or if they planned to use 8bits or 12bits, or if 50/60p was important or if they only cared about 24p content. All these put together have an impact on performance that could make the difference between frame drops and no frame drops unless PQ is compromised.

The OP might have no idea that some of these features even exist, but my point is to simply bring to their attention that the question in itself doesn't provide enough information to allow anyone (included myself) to make an educated guess that won't lead to frustration or disappointment once they buy the recommended 1060. Will you refund them when they find out that they can only use half to the features offered by madVR or have to compromise PQ more than they intended to if they follow your advice? Or will you blame them for not having provided enough information when they asked the question?

For me, madVR is about getting the best possible PQ. When I bought my 1080ti a couple of years back, I had some headroom. Today, especially with HDR dynamic tonemapping for 4K content, I have none. I would just like to see people who make recommendations to read carefully what's written in a question, and ask for more information before making a recommendation.

Now it looks like some are not happy with this. I have no idea why, but that won't change the reason why I posted. It's because a 1060 is limited in many situations, and I'd rather be sure that a prospective buyer is aware of these limitations before they buy one. If they are and can live with them, fine, they save money and everyone is happy (including me).

I agree with those who say that this exchange has been long enough, so this will be my last post on the subject as I don't have the time nor the inclination to go on discussing this in another thread .
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Old 2nd July 2019, 18:53   #56751  |  Link
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but a 1060 can do tone mapping with medium setting it can do NGU with medium setting and it can do calibration all at the same time at 60 hz.

BTW. tone mapping with TVs is sadly not that great people are usually not eager to have an 500+ nits SDR image or change the TV settings all the time...
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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:04   #56752  |  Link
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On the latest build, 1060 is the minimum for HDR->SDR Tonemapping. You can use 3DLUT, you can't use NGU.

Some users on here consider (no NGU chroma) -A Compromise-, As an enthusiast that is their right.

But 100% of the time actually WATCHING A MOVIE, you can not tell the difference between lanczos chroma and Ngu Chroma.

At more than 2 feet away, on a 50 inch screen, I can't even tell the difference between Nearest neighbor chroma and NGU VeryHigh.


For 1080p SDR movies, and 2160p HDR, 1060gtx is more than enough.

Enthusiasts like to pump the chroma setting because it makes them feel special. In reality it's a waste of electricity. This has been discussed to death since the NNEDI craze.


The only thing about 1060 anyone needs to watch out for is mining cards with low VRM count, these cards wear out and blow up.

It is recommended to get 1070, because who knows what madshi might cook up in the future.. But the politics is of course, now that Madshi is switching to Envy, will Madvr-Fans receive the same updates as before.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:32   #56753  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
did i miss something?
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.

And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580. 1660 makes me go from 16GB to 8GB, M2 nvme to ssd and a worst case.

I think i can live without NGU performance or VP) hardware decoding. Given my cpu can software decoding a 4k vp9 youtube video at 4k resolution im fine. Ryzen 5 can do that i guess...

Now RX 570 4/8GB or 580 4GB?
And 1650 is that bad??
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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:45   #56754  |  Link
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a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 21:47   #56755  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
ok so rx 580 here i go. And VP9 10 bit 4k decoding even by software with youtube low video bitrates shouldnt be an issue for an hexa core with 12 threads and idk how many cache but almost 20'mb. i guess 20% of cpu??

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Old 2nd July 2019, 22:48   #56756  |  Link
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BTW. tone mapping with TVs is sadly not that great people are usually not eager to have an 500+ nits SDR image or change the TV settings all the time...
I think we've talked about this before, the main reason is to raise the diffuse white level. This is useful even for 500+ nits TVs, though in this case it's much more justified to follow the PQ to get the HDR as it was conceived. But below that the conversion to SDR works very well, and could work better in my opinion for 250+ nits with some settings that ATM madVR does not provide.

Look at this, unfortunately the video has been deleted:

https://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/...-in-hdr.10305/
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:39   #56757  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
I've had banding issues with the 580, and the HDR passthrough sometimes doesn't trigger properly.. Madshi may fix everything in the future, but it doesn't make any sense to buy a 580 today, when we know a 1060 WORKS for all the important features.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:23   #56758  |  Link
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Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.

And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580. 1660 makes me go from 16GB to 8GB, M2 nvme to ssd and a worst case.

I think i can live without NGU performance or VP) hardware decoding. Given my cpu can software decoding a 4k vp9 youtube video at 4k resolution im fine. Ryzen 5 can do that i guess...

Now RX 570 4/8GB or 580 4GB?
And 1650 is that bad??
you know, the other compromise is much better.
2x8GB ➔ 1x8GB would still allow you to add one more stick later on, plus 8GB ram doesn't really affect video quality and your PC would still run just fine.
NVMe ➔ SATA SSD would still allow you to add an NVMe later on, on this note a SATA SSD is just as capable, in practice it would only be a tiny bit slower for non-SSD-to-SSD-filetransfer use.
heck if push comes to shove you could even temporarily go without an SSD if this PC is purely for playing videos, its not like waiting a few more seconds is worse than your eyes rotting right?
as for the case, well thats one thing i wouldn't compromise on.

where as buying a 1650, 570 or 580... you could only sell them at a loss to upgrade later on, worse yet if you can't even sell them off.
so you should ask yourself about your own priorities, is it to save money at the expense of barely scrapping the minimum, or buying less compromising parts at the expense of putting hold on buying other less relevant parts.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:40   #56759  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.
And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
it doesn't make any sense to buy a 580 today, when we know a 1060 WORKS for all the important features.
Agreed, just buy a used (!) 1060 6GB (MSI Gaming series are really low noise/silent as well).
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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:33   #56760  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Here D3D11 copyback is at least 15-20% slower than D3D11 native. It's even more obvious when measuring files with MadMeasureHDR. It takes 10-15mn in D3D11 native with my 1080ti, at least 20-25mn in copyback, and more than 30mn with my iGPU on the MBP 13" 2018.
...
Good for you. It's not meaningless here. That's why I suggest you test a 1080ti with my OS and then report back, instead of claiming that there is no difference.
I already told them the very same here and here, asked them for similar graphs, never got a reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
the question is what exactly do you want to do with madVR
Almost, but the full (?) question is: what "environment" do you have, at least:
- projector, 720p/1080p TV, 4k HDR TV
-- is it capable of chroma 4:4:4 and will you use it (it can have drawbacks)
- screen size
- sitting distance
- resolution of content and the avg framerate of it

E.g. "only" a 65" 4k HDR TV from ~3 meters has completely different requirements than a 140" 4k PJ SDR screen from 2 meters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
A lot of people brag about their lower GPU, but they either don't use all the features or they compromise on quality. Or they don't notice frame drops.
...
Clearly a lot of people are happy with a 1060, and I'm very happy they are. But if someone buys a 1060 today, I'd rather be sure that they realise that they are limiting the number of features and the PQ they can get. That's all.
We agree with with "limiting the number of features" but not the "compromise on PQ" part.
Limitation of features (that is not required) is not a problem (e.g. with the B8 I don't need the tonemapping of madvr, I use HDR passthrough, and the result looks waaay better than the other at e.g. 140 nits)

The PQ debate is a different thing: this is what a 1060 6GB can do on a 4k HDR TV with different contents.

Now, if you take a look at the 2160p25 and 1080p25 profiles, we can see that the settings are pretty high (not maxed out, of course).
Other refresh rates and/or resolutions (e.g. 720p30) obviously have worse settings, but the question is: do we really care about those?

(Note, that I even modded those settings a bit but I haven't updated that post (yet)? due to lack of interest. )

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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
It is recommended to get 1070, because who knows what madshi might cook up in the future.. But the politics is of course, now that Madshi is switching to Envy, will Madvr-Fans receive the same updates as before.
I only don't agree with this part: there's no such thing as future proofing in the world of PC, never was I just buy what (I think) I need at the moment.
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