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Old 15th February 2019, 20:01   #54761  |  Link
SamuriHL
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
It's only 10000 with single lcd layer

So... we'd need 20,000 with the panasonic light modulation layer + lcd layer

Then throw in blur reduction blinking, something like 30-40,000cd ?
I take it back...we WILL need madvr tone mapping after all. Even at 1000-2000 nits some of these displays are blinding! My 700 or so nits with my OLED is fine but I've seen some of these crazy high nit LCD's and I would think some people would want to tone map down so as not to need sunglasses!
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:37   #54762  |  Link
Alexkral
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
The thing I don't understand all viewing distances aside, is that people say you need to spend X on a really good OLED TV with HDR and High Nits, yet everyone says the most common TVs still do not have a high enough brightness for HDR.

You see comments on TV threads saying well your TV is only 350 NITS, so you do not have proper HDR etc etc.

But yet you have madshi and others tweaking the heck out of HDR-SDR on projectors with even lower NITS and they are saying that they don't want to use HDR passthrough as it looks so much better.

So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
That's because of the way HDR relies on brightness. HDR is supossed to be seen exactly the same in the range 0-100 as SDR in a 100 peak nits display, but with the added highlights above that up to the display limit (say 350 nits). But this same 0-100 range in SDR at full brightness becomes 0-350 in this example.

So the reasoning to determine whether or not a display has a proper HDR is based on the range it has to fit the highlights, which for HDR10 are in the range 100-1000 and for Dolby 100-4000, and that's very subjetive. I've seen comments like those you say but also reviews in Rtings giving an 8 score in HDR to displays with only 450 peak nits. The only serious paper I've seen is one from EBU about requirements for video monitors in TV production, which sets the lower limit to 600 nits.

And the problem to have a simple calibration setup is that not all the content is graded the same way. That's why they're using madVR measurements of different averages to set dynamically the most adequate exposure.
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:46   #54763  |  Link
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Originally Posted by LigH View Post
If it is telecined (Film => NTSC), use Inverse Telecine (IVTC); else - if it is interlaced, use a deinterlacer (preferably with bobber to double the frame rate).
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
PsF pal is technically telecine too and using ivtc instead of deinterlancing is usually better to or deactivating deinterlancing.

the "best" deinterlancer we currently have in madVR is video deinterlancing which is frame adaptive on all GPUs
Did I understand correctly that LAV Deinterlacing Algorithm need to set to "No software deinterlacing" for all cases basically?
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:57   #54764  |  Link
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if you want madVR IVTC or hardware deinterlancing yes.
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Old 16th February 2019, 00:28   #54765  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
And the problem to have a simple calibration setup is that not all the content is graded the same way. That's why they're using madVR measurements of different averages to set dynamically the most adequate exposure.
I agree with all that you say, but the part I do not understand, is if this is the case, there are multiple people comparing the same scenes but they will all have different settings to start off with.

I understand all HDR movies are not the same, but unless you start off with a base setting, I don't understand how you can setup madVR ?

The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:36   #54766  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
I agree with all that you say, but the part I do not understand, is if this is the case, there are multiple people comparing the same scenes but they will all have different settings to start off with.

I understand all HDR movies are not the same, but unless you start off with a base setting, I don't understand how you can setup madVR ?

The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.

The non-madvr plebs just use passthrough or equivalent, letting the TV do the tonemapping.

The TV uses the same style of tonemapping as madvr's tone mapping to get the hdr bluray content to FIT in the range of the tv set.

Madvr is just more pliable and NGU (holy aura, angel sings).
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:44   #54767  |  Link
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Sorry, I misread your post, I though you was refering to a setup for HDR -> SDR. HDR is an absolute format, so you don't have to do anything, the HDR mode of your display takes care of doing everything and it should look the same as in any other HDR display up to the peak limit. You only have to make sure to choose the normal HDR mode and maybe check that contrast and backlight are at 100% and dynamic contrast is disabled.

Anyway I don't use HDR passthrough and my HDR TV is from 2016 so I'm not the best to explain this.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:59   #54768  |  Link
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no this is not even close to reality.

HDR display do what ever they what and there is no clear spec on how to put the higher range image into the lower range of the TV.

just clipping is not an option. clipping 4000 nits to 600 will not result in anything useful. heck what about sub 100 nit projector just clip at 100 nits?
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:14   #54769  |  Link
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They don't do whatever they want, they all have to decode the content with the same PQ EOTF up to some point, so the image up to this point is exactly the same in terms of luminance, with the only difference of the limitations of each display regarding black point. Above that point each display has his own tonemapping, but this doesn't affect very much the overall luminance.

HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:30   #54770  |  Link
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It's the tonemapping part that's the issue. If you have a display with a high enough max nit, then you'll not see a lot of tonemapping being done. The lower the max nit of the display, the more compressed the highlights need to become. How they do that can vary wildly between displays. Some are decent at it and you'll hardly notice. Others are...less so. NONE of them are as good as madvr has become. When you say there's not much overall luminance lost, that's not always entirely true. madshi spent some time doing luminance recovery but it's a trade off like most everything. In any case, people are able to fine tune the settings to their liking depending on their preference. Some like more dynamic. Others prefer more clipping. Fun times!
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:54   #54771  |  Link
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You can call it luminance recovery, but that's just detail management, more like sharpening if not exactly the same. That doesn't affect the overall luminance at all. The biggest difference could come from choosing a very different knee point, but that's no very likely, and even then the differences would be minimal.
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Old 16th February 2019, 10:21   #54772  |  Link
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HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
did you ever try this?
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Old 16th February 2019, 13:33   #54773  |  Link
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HI SamuriHL, I also have GTX1060 and an LG OLED.

Do you use ToneMapping ? When applying ToneMapping for me, rendering for goes from 30ms to 55-60ms and makes it unwatchable

Only when I downscale a lot of settings (Chroma from NGU High to low, Image Upscaling to NGU low & downscaling to Spline, it is somewhat acceptable ( 30-35ms )

And strangely enough, I get the best values with 800 nits, while my 2015/16 OLED is rated at 540 nits

If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
It's the tonemapping part that's the issue. If you have a display with a high enough max nit, then you'll not see a lot of tonemapping being done. The lower the max nit of the display, the more compressed the highlights need to become. How they do that can vary wildly between displays. Some are decent at it and you'll hardly notice. Others are...less so. NONE of them are as good as madvr has become. When you say there's not much overall luminance lost, that's not always entirely true. madshi spent some time doing luminance recovery but it's a trade off like most everything. In any case, people are able to fine tune the settings to their liking depending on their preference. Some like more dynamic. Others prefer more clipping. Fun times!
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Old 16th February 2019, 15:29   #54774  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.
Setting up an HDR display for HDR content isn't really that different than setting up a display for SDR output. Only the transfer function has changed, but the white balance and white point function the same and can sometimes be shared with the SDR picture mode of some displays.

Some Rules:

- Brightness and Contrast on many displays shouldn't be touched because they are used by the display to set the bottom and top of the tone curve;
- You can adjust the white balance, but not all HDR displays will allow you to improve PQ EOTF tracking because it may again effect the tracking of the tone curve;
- On displays that don't allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, it is advised to use the 2-point RGB High and RGB Low controls to improve the white balance;
- On displays that do allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, you can use the full 10-20 point grayscale controls to dial-in both the white balance and PQ tracking;
- The peak brightness or backlight of the display should most often be set to its highest value;
- Based on the HDR picture mode selected, some displays will change the tone mapping method used (e.g. clipping vs. tone mapping);
- Color temperature and Tint should be selected in the same way as SDR content (e.g. Color 50, Tint 50, Warm2, etc.).

Bright HDR displays don't usually have a lot of work to do with tone mapping beyond the brightest specular highlights, but when tone mapping is applied, the display is supposed to tone map 0-100 nits as little as possible, and preferably not at all.

A projector will have to tone map much of 0-100 nits at all times because it needs likely double or triple the brightness to have enough headroom above 100 nits to avoid this. When HDR content is graded, heavy tone mapping of 0-100 nits likely isn't taken into consideration, which is why some HDR movies end up darker than others when projected. Consistent brightness across all sources is more challenging with protected HDR than flat panel TVs, especially when you are consistently lowering the APL of the source.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 15:44.
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Old 16th February 2019, 15:33   #54775  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
As huhn said, clipping at 100 nits is impossible. The image would end up a washed out mess with far too many pixels clipping at the gamut edges. You have to apply a harsh tone curve to the entire range.

HDR at 100 nits is not really HDR, but a good tone curve, like the one used by madVR, can make it look attractive and provide visibly more contrast than SDR at the same brightness.
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Old 16th February 2019, 16:35   #54776  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
a good tone curve, like the one used by madVR, can make it look attractive and provide visibly more contrast than SDR at the same brightness.
Did you mean provide visibly more dynamic range?
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Old 16th February 2019, 17:01   #54777  |  Link
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Did you mean provide visibly more dynamic range?
Probably not, unless you are using a definition of dynamic range that also works for contrast. What is the difference, exactly? You never really increase the dynamic range or contrast of the screen, obviously, but the image looks like it has more contrast.

I don't quite understand the strong interest in HDR -> SDR myself. Colorists could have graded this way for a long time, but they didn't. I find that very compressed HDR usually looks worse than the SDR release most of the time, in the same way "vivid" modes do on displays. It pops more but it doesn't look as good. Real HDR (1000+ nits) is great, no complaints there.

I suppose standard SDR is mastered for 0-100 and this very compressed HDR should be better for 0-300? I use 100 nits for SDR so maybe that is why I don't like it. Or maybe it is just that most of my HDR content also includes an SDR version which is better mastered for an SDR display?
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:07   #54778  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ?
I replied to your PM. Hopefully that helps!
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:33   #54779  |  Link
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Probably not, unless you are using a definition of dynamic range that also works for contrast. What is the difference, exactly? You never really increase the dynamic range or contrast of the screen, obviously, but the image looks like it has more contrast.
There is actually a difference. You are consistently lowering the brightness of reference white, which creates contrast between bright and dark detail. Digital photography has mastered the art of tone mapping high dynamic range images to standard dynamic range images for years. HDR video is using many of the same techniques and formulas that are already known to work well.

You would be surprised how many projector owners at AVS Forums love the HDR -> SDR tone mapping of madVR when projected. At 150 nits, I do think a lot of content looks better than a very restricted SDR range of 100 nits, provided the tone curve holds up and properly represents the bottom and top of the range without crushing or washing out the image too much.

I still don't know if projector owners understand that 100 nit SDR content already maxed out the actual available dynamic range of a projector. I think the sentiment is towards replicating the Dolby Cinema approach to HDR that uses 107 nits. But you need a projector with a low black level and great contrast to make this limited range HDR work and have any impact.

Then it is more about improved contrast than dynamic range. But the current PQ HDR format is using far more steps than 107 nits, which will harm image quality no matter how you tone map the image. I think they fail to realize that range compression must represent the contrast of the entire 1,000 nit source and not just the 100 nits they have to work with. You can't get around squishing the source in places to make the image fit the frame. I like it, but you can't expect a perfect result at all times across all movies when applying that much range compression. There are local tone curves that allow you to tweak the shadows, midtones and highlights independently, but they are probably too slow for madVR and even they would require some compromise somewhere.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 19:49.
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:56   #54780  |  Link
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did you ever try this?
I can imagine the result, what I mean is what Warner306 says, anything else can't really be considered HDR (nor clipping at 100 nits).
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