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Old 1st November 2018, 04:45   #53501  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Madshi will have a new release out soon with some big improvements to HDR tone-mapping.
The level of nerdiness with the tone mapping is becoming impressive. Even though most projector owners can't see past 100 nits, they are now analyzing real-time graphs of brightness histograms and preparing weighted averages of HDR content based on the measurement files produced by LAV Filters and madVR.

There are professional TV and Blu-ray reviews out there who would love to have this information. I have seen mistakes made in reviews where a reviewer has erroneously assumed one display is not any brighter than the other while comparing content that doesn't reach past the peak brightness of either display. This data also makes it possible to cherry-pick scenes as demo material. The only downside will be the number of frustrated people who want to understand how to use it all.

I like the picture produced by HDR -> SDR, but I can't help but notice the lack of visible steps when you lower the target nits and brightness excessively. But what can you do...but buy a brighter display or a laser projector. HDR still has a long ways to go to live up to the promises made by Dolby. It should have happened a long time ago because grading content to 100 nits doesn't make much sense for almost all current displays.
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Old 1st November 2018, 04:51   #53502  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The level of nerdiness with the tone mapping is becoming impressive.
Hopefully it raises the bar enough that display manufacturers take note and improve their own tone-mapping.

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Maybe he has an evil lair with a bunch of super computers/GPUs to do this type of training?
He implied to me that he used NNEDI3 as groundwork for NGU AA as a result of it having the same picture offset as NNEDI3 does. It possible he got in touch with the elusive NNEDI3 author Tritical

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Old 1st November 2018, 05:20   #53503  |  Link
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I’ve referenced a link that says NGU Sharp was trained with downscaled photos. Anti-Alias is, as you said, different.
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Old 1st November 2018, 09:02   #53504  |  Link
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With that said, I don't think NGU Sharp was trained well with poor material. I have seen some content look like an oil painting that kind of made me drunk while watching it.
If it was truely trained on taking high-res originals and downscales of those, then that is entirely expected. If you do such a training, the filter doesn't learn to "upscale", it learns to un-do the downscale - which in theory sounds similar, but in practice can end up quite different.

Low-quality content does not qualify for that particular type, since even if it was downscaled once, those attributes were destroyed by over-compression, noise, or whatever makes it "low quality".

Thats really the hard part with training (outside the computational requirements). You need to be careful how you train it, or you might bias the algorithm. If you only train on pristine downscales of high-quality high-res images, then thats what it'll be good at, and only that.
But of course where do you get a set of medium to low quality images and high-quality upscales of those to train an algorithm? Someone would have to upscale those in the first place. Or you downscale images, and then artifically degrade them, but unless you do that very carefully, the algorithm might once again just learn to un-do your degredation, and not in a very generic sense.
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Old 1st November 2018, 11:51   #53505  |  Link
madjock
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The level of nerdiness with the tone mapping is becoming impressive.
It is, but from someone that does not really want to check all their files before watching, I hope it gets dumbed down a lot to a user level.

This sounds selfish I guess, but from an HDR to SDR point from a non 4K owner, I am unsure what all these extra settings achieves.

I guess it may be a case of using a certain rev and being happy with that.
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Old 1st November 2018, 12:04   #53506  |  Link
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Hi guys,
With an LG OLED 2017, should I set 700 for the target peak nits or should I stick with 400?
I use the last test build with the measurement tool and the result is already amazing!!
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Old 1st November 2018, 12:28   #53507  |  Link
kostik
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Hi guys,
With an LG OLED 2017, should I set 700 for the target peak nits or should I stick with 400?
I use the last test build with the measurement tool and the result is already amazing!!
I have the same question but for LG OLED C8:

OLED C8:

HDR Real Scene Peak Brightness : 683 cd/mē
HDR Peak 2% Window: 944 cd/mē
HDR Peak 10% Window: 907 cd/mē
HDR Peak 25% Window: 517 cd/mē
HDR Peak 50% Window: 330 cd/mē
HDR Peak 100% Window: 161 cd/mē

HDR Sustained 2% Window : 895 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 10% Window: 872 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 25% Window: 498 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 50% Window: 317 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 100% Window: 155 cd/mē

HDR ABL : 0.106

OLED C7:

HDR Real Scene Peak Brightness : 718 cd/mē
HDR Peak 2% Window: 717 cd/mē
HDR Peak 10% Window: 733 cd/mē
HDR Peak 25% Window: 447 cd/mē
HDR Peak 50% Window: 313 cd/mē
HDR Peak 100% Window: 143 cd/mē

HDR Sustained 2% Window : 695 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 10% Window: 703 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 25% Window: 429 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 50% Window: 291 cd/mē
HDR Sustained 100% Window: 137 cd/mē
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Old 1st November 2018, 13:12   #53508  |  Link
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Reference what to set the NITs too, for the last two posts.

It seems to be subjective to what film you are watching and what you like yourselves brightness wise. From what I have read the brighter you make it, the more chance you have of losing details.

I think it will be another madVR to personal taste to a point.
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Old 1st November 2018, 14:28   #53509  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
With that said, I don't think NGU Sharp was trained well with poor material. I have seen some content look like an oil painting that kind of made me drunk while watching it.
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Low-quality content does not qualify for that particular type, since even if it was downscaled once, those attributes were destroyed by over-compression, noise, or whatever makes it "low quality".
IMHO for an equal display size, lower definition content needs higher bits/pixel for quality to ,stay the same, but very often it doesn't.
Even YouTube, which (at least with VP9) uses higher bits/pixel at definitions lower than 1080, can't compensate for that (OTOH, their downscaling is horrible... ).
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It is, but from someone that does not really want to check all their files before watching, I hope it gets dumbed down a lot to a user level.
Well, you're not forced to measure all your HDR videos before watching, you can still use the dynamic on-the-fly version while setting a brightness reaction time that suits you.
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This sounds selfish I guess, but from an HDR to SDR point from a non 4K owner, I am unsure what all these extra settings achieves.
Whether your display is 4K or not doesn't matter, it's useful even on 1080.
It avoids big/sudden brightness variations while at the same time still using the dynamic range of your display in an optimal way.
Think about it like the video version of what measuring your tracks to add ReplayGain metadata does for music instead of using an on-the-fly loudness equalizer/limiter.
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Old 1st November 2018, 14:36   #53510  |  Link
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When a new version is actually released it won't have all the options that the test builds have. Those options are there in the test builds to allow different things to be tested and a value found that everyone who is testing can live with. That value then becomes baked in. As for the measurement files they can be generated by watching a film so that the next time you watch it it'll use the data to improve the quality. The idea isn't to make a whole bunch of options that people need to mess with. But figuring all that it is exactly why they're doing a lot of testing up front between each new build.

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Old 1st November 2018, 15:01   #53511  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
If it was truely trained on taking high-res originals and downscales of those, then that is entirely expected. If you do such a training, the filter doesn't learn to "upscale", it learns to un-do the downscale - which in theory sounds similar, but in practice can end up quite different.

Low-quality content does not qualify for that particular type, since even if it was downscaled once, those attributes were destroyed by over-compression, noise, or whatever makes it "low quality".

Thats really the hard part with training (outside the computational requirements). You need to be careful how you train it, or you might bias the algorithm. If you only train on pristine downscales of high-quality high-res images, then thats what it'll be good at, and only that.
But of course where do you get a set of medium to low quality images and high-quality upscales of those to train an algorithm? Someone would have to upscale those in the first place. Or you downscale images, and then artifically degrade them, but unless you do that very carefully, the algorithm might once again just learn to un-do your degredation, and not in a very generic sense.
Yeah, I don't know how the training could be done for poor content with consistent results. It is difficult to carefully degrade a source and repair it. I'm not if it's worth it when you can just choose something like NGU Anti-Alias that handles poor sources fairly well. But I've seen some odd results with NGU Sharp on some material.
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Old 1st November 2018, 15:03   #53512  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Hi guys,
With an LG OLED 2017, should I set 700 for the target peak nits or should I stick with 400?
I use the last test build with the measurement tool and the result is already amazing!!
You should be losing brightness at 400 nits if the display is actually 700 nits.
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Old 1st November 2018, 15:04   #53513  |  Link
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Reference what to set the NITs too, for the last two posts.

It seems to be subjective to what film you are watching and what you like yourselves brightness wise. From what I have read the brighter you make it, the more chance you have of losing details.

I think it will be another madVR to personal taste to a point.
The higher the target, the less chance of losing detail because less compression is involved.
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Old 1st November 2018, 15:10   #53514  |  Link
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NGU sharp is well known to under perform on bad sources.
and that's where RCA comes into play which helps NGU sharp tremendously.
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Old 1st November 2018, 17:45   #53515  |  Link
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NGU sharp is well known to under perform on bad sources.
and that's where RCA comes into play which helps NGU sharp tremendously.
What is best for "bad sources" then?

Would a GTX 1050 Ti be able to handle NGU and RCA?


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Old 1st November 2018, 18:42   #53516  |  Link
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I have the same question but for LG OLED C8:
I'd go for 2% peak nits as your peak nits in madVR, it ought to be particularly impactful in dark scenes with small bright single lights or space scenes, in overall brighter scenes the pupil would contract to compensate so the impact of those peak highlights would get lost anyway even if they were presented in original peak brightness...

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Old 1st November 2018, 19:07   #53517  |  Link
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Would a GTX 1050 Ti be able to handle NGU and RCA?
RCA is free for NGU Sharp. It's called NGU fusion.
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Old 1st November 2018, 19:16   #53518  |  Link
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RCA is free for NGU Sharp. It's called NGU fusion.
NGU Sharp would be too sharp for me, as I am using Sharpen Complex 2 in MPC-HC.

Would the GTX 1050 Ti, 4GB GDDR5 be able to handle something like: NGU AA, RCA and SC2 for upscaling 720p to 4K?
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Old 1st November 2018, 19:20   #53519  |  Link
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No, NGU AA + RCA is quite hard.
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Old 1st November 2018, 21:35   #53520  |  Link
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@MADSHI - to come back to an issue AMD users have, over blown colours for SDR material. I've made some further progress on this with help from another user with the same problem SPENCERFORD.
I've now managed to reproduce this using MPC-BE so it does look like its either driver or DIRECT3D related. However I’ve now found that this only happens with 8 bit 1080p material which is upscaled to 2160p and outputted in 10bit using DIRECT3D, If I play an SDR movie which is native 2160p its fine so it seems to be the upscaling part which is confusing something in the driver / output chain. All 2160p HDR material is also unaffected.
So to reproduce this you need:
• Play a 1080p 8 bit SDR movie
• Have 10 bit or higher enabled on graphsics card and in MADVR
• Set Movie player or MADVR to upscale to 2160p.
• Ensure DIRECT3D 11 is enabled in MADVR or other movie player
• HDR cable TV/MONITOR/PROJECTOR * unsure about this one.

I have logged a ticket to AMD with this new information but I logged one before and nothing came of it, do you have a contact at AMD you could mention this to maybe?.
Now I have this locked down can some other AMD users see if they can reproduce this, for some reason it’s a lot noticeable on the Phantom menace about 32 minutes in, see screen shot.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBigP8JoUs9wKjRu8Ajjw
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