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Old 12th January 2019, 18:47   #54241  |  Link
Charky
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
But what are you actually achieving here ? apart from seeing a 12 on an OSD ?
If you want to say that 10/12 bits is useless, just say it (and explain why). Being snarky doesn't make you look smart
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Old 12th January 2019, 19:16   #54242  |  Link
madjock
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If you want to say that 10/12 bits is useless, just say it (and explain why). Being snarky doesn't make you look smart
It was a question to be honest, I thought the way you were chasing it was me asking why.

Have you any sources in 12 bit ?

I have read on this forum and many others whilst chasing a supposed better dream by increasing bits and in reality it does nothing and indeed can cause issues.

Search 8bit vs 10 bit in Google and the majority say its not worth it, you cannot get 10bit as nVidia has disabled it unless its for games, you will never see more colours and madVR will never output more than 10bit anyway.

So no not snarky, just thought there was something I was missing, and wondered why people chased the extra hastle of changing settings all the time.
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Old 12th January 2019, 20:15   #54243  |  Link
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I don't think there is even a 12 bit panel made for consumers at least nothing mainstream.
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Old 12th January 2019, 20:55   #54244  |  Link
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I switch to 12 bit. After turning off dithering for testing and comparing I could see better graduation in the greyscale ramp, it's minor but it's a free improvement so I'll take it, just test for yourself how your screen handles it.
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Old 12th January 2019, 21:01   #54245  |  Link
huhn
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excuses me? disabling dithering if you only saw minor difference then you should maybe look for a better test pattern.

i even have a troubles imaging an processing error in TV that would be worse then sending 8 bit without dithering.
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Old 12th January 2019, 21:42   #54246  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Search 8bit vs 10 bit in Google and the majority say its not worth it, you cannot get 10bit as nVidia has disabled it unless its for games you will never see more colours
This is just wrong. You can get 10-bit/12-bit output on any modern GPU, depending on monitor support.

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madVR will never output more than 10bit anyway.
While this is true for now, its also irrelevant. We use 12-bit because thats what NVIDIA gives you with many HDMI TVs. Its either 8 or 12, and if you can output 10-bit with madVR, then clearly 12 is the only mode to actually preserve those 10-bits, because 8 would reduce it.
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Old 12th January 2019, 21:57   #54247  |  Link
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I switch to 12 bit. After turning off dithering for testing and comparing I could see better graduation in the greyscale ramp, it's minor but it's a free improvement so I'll take it, just test for yourself how your screen handles it.
This is a bad methodology. Leave on dithering when doing all comparisons, you would never watch with dithering off so don't turn it off when testing.

Dithering is often misunderstood, it is not hiding errors, it is how to do the math correctly when viewing/listening to digitally sampled sources.

You can use test patterns with dithering off when trying to understand what your display's internal processing is doing but do not make extrapolations from those tests like you did here. You assume there is a "free improvement" from a test that was not representative of the image you would actually see when using 8 or 12 bit. How does that tell you anything? I get why we all do these overly simply tests but we need to be very careful when interpreting, or disseminating, the results. There can be a lot of misinformation spread based on inappropriate testing methodology.
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Old 12th January 2019, 22:32   #54248  |  Link
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My Samsung MU7072 is 8bit+frc. NVCP recognizes it as 8 bit only. Full RGB.
Ia that normal?
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Old 12th January 2019, 22:44   #54249  |  Link
huhn
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HDMI can't do more at 60 hz the bandwidth is simply capped.

try 23-30 hz and 12 bit should be an option for full range RGB.
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Old 13th January 2019, 04:26   #54250  |  Link
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This is a bad methodology. Leave on dithering when doing all comparisons, you would never watch with dithering off so don't turn it off when testing.
Of course I did this first, however I couldn't determine a clear result by doing that. So testing this way helped me to determine if this it made any difference at all and because it did i can only conclude if it's not harming quality then it's at least the same or better.. That's good enough for me.
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:42   #54251  |  Link
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Why is it none of these refresh rate tools and utilities have color depth entries?

There is also good old Windows 10 versioning issue. In the the latest 1809-17763 there is no option for me to select 12bit in any refresh rate mode other than 60Hz and 59Hz, but in 1607-14393 there definitely was 12bit available for 23-24Hz range.

MadVR mode tool sets 1809 to 24Hz 8bit and 1607 to 24Hz BLANK bit (presumably BLANK bit = 12bit).
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:19   #54252  |  Link
madjock
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Why is it none of these refresh rate tools and utilities have color depth entries?

There is also good old Windows 10 versioning issue. In the the latest 1809-17763 there is no option for me to select 12bit in any refresh rate mode other than 60Hz and 59Hz, but in 1607-14393 there definitely was 12bit available for 23-24Hz range.

MadVR mode tool sets 1809 to 24Hz 8bit and 1607 to 24Hz BLANK bit (presumably BLANK bit = 12bit).
I can select 12 bit in NVCP panel in 1809 but obviously cant get it to stick in a custom res in the NVCP.

I am using 416.34.
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:57   #54253  |  Link
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This is just wrong. You can get 10-bit/12-bit output on any modern GPU, depending on monitor support.

It is far from wrong, it is stated everywhere nVidia wise anyway that you need a Pro card to get 10bit like a Quadro, hence why we can only select 8 or 12bit. 10 bit they have reserved for Direct X games as far as I can read up on


While this is true for now, its also irrelevant. We use 12-bit because thats what NVIDIA gives you with many HDMI TVs. Its either 8 or 12, and if you can output 10-bit with madVR, then clearly 12 is the only mode to actually preserve those 10-bits, because 8 would reduce it.
The majority of people myself included have an 8bit TV with FRC to make it 10, so am I going to see an improvement going from 12 to 10 on a fake 10 bit TV anyway ? are we not all talking about dithering in one way or another, would we see any extra colours, because again all I can read is it is due to banding issues so I have really no idea if it is better to stay at 8bit as we could never tell anyway ?

Last edited by madjock; 13th January 2019 at 13:46.
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:17   #54254  |  Link
nevcairiel
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It is far from wrong, it is stated everywhere by nVidia that you need a Pro card to get 10bit like a Quadro, hence why we can only select 8 or 12bit.
You are just plain out wrong. If you have a monitor which only accepts 10-bit, and not 12-bit, then NVIDIA will offer you 10-bit output on consumer cards. I know, because I'm looking at it right this second with just such a monitor.

Please stop spreading your half-knowledge. The only thing you need Quadro for is 10-bit OpenGL output, which has some weird historical reasons.
I encourage you to read up on this topic, which has been discussed countless times in this very thread already. You don't need a Pro card for 10-bit. And what logic would that even be, why would 10-bit be limited to Pro cards, but 12-bit be allowed? Clearly 12 is superior to 10 if its fully supported, since its even more bits.

The reason you get 12-bit on HDMI TVs is that they only offer the highest bitdepth the display supports, which in that case is 12. It has nothing to do with "Pro" at all. If you have a screen which only supports 10-bit, like some PC monitors, then it'll offer 10-bit output in the control panel. There is absolutely no "Pro" limitation whatsoever here. 10-bit or 12-bit are used for proper HDR output even by the OS itself, as well as games. One doesn't game on Pro cards much.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 13th January 2019 at 12:24.
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:58   #54255  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
10-bit or 12-bit are used for proper HDR output even by the OS itself, as well as games.
Do you mean Windows is able to 'force' 10-bit output for native OS HDR even if NVIDIA doesn't make the option available in its control panel? Or is the OS HDR mode ultimately converted to the output setting that is selected in NVIDIA's control panel?
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Old 13th January 2019, 13:08   #54256  |  Link
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no it is just sending an image to the GPU driver and the GPU does what ever it wants to do with it. the driver has to make the image fit the signal needed for the end device.

but you can always, even on 8 bit screen, throw 10 or even 16 bit at the head of the driver.

10 bit output is pretty important for games game developer never learn or cared about dithering and high bit deep buffering. banding in skys is just the norm in games that render in 10 bit.

and why not simply put the nail in the coffin AMD can send 10 bit AMD can even do 6.
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Old 13th January 2019, 13:40   #54257  |  Link
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Re Nvidia - there is a way to get 12 bit out and survive a reboot with later drivers.

Use CRU to create the custom res, and then go into the NCP and select "use default colour settings"....however, you're not done yet, as this will change the output to Limited range.....so, next download this tool to force Full RGB for everything (link http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/wp-co...angeToggle.zip). exctract, run and select force Full range and reboot.....all good to go now for custom res for 23.976 at full range with 12 bit.

Job done.
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Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 13th January 2019 at 13:49.
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Old 13th January 2019, 13:44   #54258  |  Link
huhn
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you may want to have a look at madleveltweaker.exe
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Old 13th January 2019, 13:45   #54259  |  Link
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Yeah, but wasnt sure if it merely enabled Full range, or forced Full range for everything - but good to know.
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Old 13th January 2019, 14:29   #54260  |  Link
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12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 is all that is available for Blu-ray players as part of the HDMI 2.0 spec at 60 Hz. There is no 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2. So the UHD format was designed for 12-bit output. I doubt 10-bits would make much of a difference unless the GPU is doing a poor conversion. Current UHD displays are supposed to be designed for 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2.
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