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Old 21st February 2020, 16:27   #58721  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Originally Posted by Msarc View Post
Before claiming anyone's ignorance, you might want to check the price of a somewhat-decent colorimeter - which is usually upwards of $250. Few people are willing to drop that much on some vague promise of better PQ.
Colorimeters need to drop 9/10th their price before anyone can even hope for them to become widely used, and I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. Wishful thinking and all.
That price is trivial .

After every calibration, consumer displays can only hold accurate for 300-500 hours of usage. The image quality of TVs begin rotting the moment you turn them on.

The Bottom line on ALL display products is, if you don't have it calibrated, you Don't get what you paid for. All the work the colorist did, the engineering behind the equipment, everything is wasted..

These facts are hidden from the public.

Calibration is like an oil change for your TV. Now that people have multiple devices , computers, tvs, monitors, laptops, A single $250 colorimeter (i1 display pro on sale for $135 during blackfriday, every year for 3-4 years in a row now), An owner can fully calibrate all of his devices. The typical family with 2 Tvs, 2 Laptops, 1 Desktop, that's $135/5, $27 to calibrate each devices + recalibrate at any time, and they'll stay in shape as long as the backlight holds.

How is that not worth it. This is clear cut, people don't buy colorimeters because they're ignorant of the benefits, not because they can't afford it.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:29   #58722  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
One way to look at it could be: where's the superior Windows option? If the latest madVR release prior to all the development gone into HDR tonemapping and Envy is still superior to all other available options, what's the problem?

I mean, considering that it's all free there should not be a problem ever with this product's development roadmap but, considering that I don't see anything superior being made available... I'm glad that I can still use it, for free.
THERE are no other options. Madvr is the Only end to end solution for PC playback that supports 3DLut. This is the single most important feature of video playback.

He's cornered the market I tells ya...

Movie director says red
Costume design makes red
Actor wears red
Camera captures Red
Editor cuts RED
Colorist Adjusts RED

Without calibration , the TV Goes, I'm pretty sure you mean't Green, wait, how bout orange, Green or orange, I'mma flip between these two colors every once in a while. < this is what people are watching >
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:48   #58723  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
NGU is one but other manufacturers have started to do machine learning upscale too (smooth motion is another but I'm not sure how many customers see it as a killer feature);
I believe he also said at one point that when HDR dynamic tone mapping is done he had some thoughts on new scaling algorithms that might take advantage of the RTX cores. He did mention that he wasn't sure if that'd make it into madvr (at least the free version, possibly reserved for pro) or not. None of this should be taken as fact as it's usually madshi just laying out what he hopes will happen from time to time. But that could be fun to see.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:50   #58724  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I believe he also said at one point that when HDR dynamic tone mapping is done he had some thoughts on new scaling algorithms that might take advantage of the RTX cores. He did mention that he wasn't sure if that'd make it into madvr (at least the free version, possibly reserved for pro) or not. None of this should be taken as fact as it's usually madshi just laying out what he hopes will happen from time to time. But that could be fun to see.
Definitely see an advantage to buying a seperate device that's uniform and easy to support for madshi.

It's the total package of madvr that makes it great, not any single feature.

That said, 3DLut color correction is the cornerstone of Madvr's absolute dominance.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:52   #58725  |  Link
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You know, I see you beating on the calibration drum an awful lot. Which is fine and all. But you'd think if you were so passionate about it, you'd invest in a real colorimeter like a Klein instead of the i1d3 toy most of us are using. After all, if accuracy is the end all and be all of video watching, then having a real meter to measure and calibrate your display with should be paramount. Not to mention you bring up panel drift while measuring....well, if you want to avoid that, you need a FAST, accurate meter. Otherwise, while you're improving things with the i1d3, it's not nearly as accurate as it should be.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:52   #58726  |  Link
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there is at least one player i know that can use 3D LUT too...
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:53   #58727  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Tobiwan View Post
madVR was always a great software and I would pay for it to use and support. Envy is now one year announced and still not available for public.



I don't get why he does focus one thing for years. I'm only a PC user and Windows change so much stuff, player changes, driver changes, features broke, new features are possible... for a TV user its not a big deal to work with stable but old software because it does nothing change.

I'm will testing now madVRhdrMeasure if it makes a difference for my system. Thanks nsnhd.

The Envy is available to the public. Some public have one already right now.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post59273432
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:56   #58728  |  Link
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it's not they are test models and still under NDA.
wrong thread BTW.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:57   #58729  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
You know, I see you beating on the calibration drum an awful lot. Which is fine and all. But you'd think if you were so passionate about it, you'd invest in a real colorimeter like a Klein instead of the i1d3 toy most of us are using. After all, if accuracy is the end all and be all of video watching, then having a real meter to measure and calibrate your display with should be paramount. Not to mention you bring up panel drift while measuring....well, if you want to avoid that, you need a FAST, accurate meter. Otherwise, while you're improving things with the i1d3, it's not nearly as accurate as it should be.
It's not just the meter, the consumer panels themselves can't hold a tight tolerance.

You have to buy the tools to match the job, I can't afford a $40,000 colorist panel, I'm not going to buy a $7000 colorimeter + $10,000 spectro.

@ the level of home movie watching, i1d3 is perfectly placed, affordable, and it works.

To get any more accurate, and STAY accurate, you need a temperature controlled system for the tv and tools.
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Old 21st February 2020, 18:10   #58730  |  Link
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Hiya, this is the same as everything we buy really, the more your spend and the more time you have to set things up the better it will be, however with something like PQ this is so subjective it can often render the calibration process meaningless to most people. And I'm not just talking about people who turn their TV on, dont change any settings and think it looks great, my mates got his OLED calibrated and to my eye it looks no better than mine.

I think you are in a ludicrously tiny minority here what you appear to require an insanely anal level of accuracy which if were compared side by side to fairly high end TV uncalibrated like the recent panny's or 2019 LG OLEDs you'd see little difference, or the difference would not justify the time and money spent to close the gap.

This isnt too say I dont agree with everything you're saying and there is nothing wrong at all with aspiring to get the best out of your equipment, its just the way your are communicating this I cant agree with where you are essentially saying we're all watching TV's like look like sh*t.

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Old 21st February 2020, 18:19   #58731  |  Link
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Let's put it this way, in the Calman thread there's a couple people who, when asked about calibration and whether it's worth it, have basically said it all depends. The LG OLEDs are a lottery. You could end up with one that comes tuned from the factory and not need any calibration. Others deviate quite a bit and can really use a good calibration. But without measuring it you can't really know what you have. The general advice from these people is this....if you are happy with the results you get out of the box, leave it alone. When I measure my C8 with factory settings, I see a deviation error of 5 or 6. Meaning yes, it's visible to the human eye. But to the majority of people out there? Throwing that thing in technicolor mode and leaving it alone is going to be more than sufficient. So while I get that calibration is useful, and I calibrate mine, for a majority of people it's likely overkill on a decent panel. But that's just my opinion. To me, madvr's algorithms are vastly more important than a flawless calibration.
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Old 21st February 2020, 18:27   #58732  |  Link
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well i guess if we all agreed this would be a very dull thread, its certainly good to thrash these issues out as long as we can all keep it friendly
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Old 21st February 2020, 18:30   #58733  |  Link
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There's no such thing as Good out of the box. It's only OK because the buyer wishes to remain Ignorant of what Good is.

That's their right as owners, but it doesn't mean the Panel is doing right, the panel is still wrong.

Even if it was the case with luck, and you win the lottery on a good panel, it doesn't STAY accurate. The first 100 hours it changes ALOT,

Then at 300-500 it stabilizes somewhat (having already drifted quite a bit).

You're not paying for the drill bit, you're paying for the hole.

You don't pay for the TV, you pay for the tv to get the MOVIE to you in the way that it's intended to be seen.

Without calibration, you don't get all of what you pay for, you're getting a crooked hole that's not drilled through all the way.

With all the money for madvr hdr, it's $500-800 computer + $500-1500 TV, it's silly to stop short at the $150 colorimeter (sale price i1dp) ?

Without which the image is 100% borked.
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Old 21st February 2020, 18:34   #58734  |  Link
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Don't get me wrong, I think calibration is important as obviously I spent the money to get the equipment and software to do it myself. But to say that it's the end all be all of video watching is a stretch. There are a LOT of factors that go into the picture quality that you get on the screen. Calibration is simply ONE of those factors. Raising it up to be above all others is, IMO, not helpful. Calibration is a tool. But so is buying a decent panel or projector, the size of your room, the amount of ambient light you're dealing with, and a 100 other realities that people deal with. EVERYTHING we do in the video world is a set of compromises. It's a matter of picking which things to compromise more on than others. There's nothing wrong with saying calibration can help in a lot of areas...as that can be true. But saying that if you don't calibrate anything you watch is wrong, well, I'm not buying that. Especially given what I've seen with my own equipment. This goes back to what I said in the OLED thread....generalized statements that don't account for ALL the variables often lead to the wrong conclusions.
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Old 21st February 2020, 19:52   #58735  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
But saying that if you don't calibrate anything you watch is wrong, well, I'm not buying that. Especially given what I've seen with my own equipment. This goes back to what I said in the OLED thread....generalized statements that don't account for ALL the variables often lead to the wrong conclusions.
It Begins and Ends with calibration.

It is by far the most critical step. Without which the world has no order.

I've already said, OK, if anarchy is the choice of the viewer, that's fine.

However, His choice does not alter what's right and wrong.


You're tasked to drill a hole, do you get paid for not completing this task.

Maybe in this case, you get a fee for just showing up and lifting some boxes, but to get full payment, You have to drill the hole.

So, the guy buys the tv, and he just watches it, OK, he's lifted some boxes. Fine, if he's content with just that, again fine.

It doesn't change the fact that this person didn't go all the way, and skipped a critical step to the day's work. He showed up, but didn't finish.
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Old 21st February 2020, 20:54   #58736  |  Link
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if you truly believe what you're saying I genuinely feel sorry for you, if must be very debilitating to be this anal about your TV accuracy, the rest of us are just doing our best with what we have and happily just getting on with enjoying our movies.
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Old 21st February 2020, 21:45   #58737  |  Link
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The funny thing is that the rest of us at least have OLEDs, which makes the most sense, if you really care about picture quality. That's basically step one right there. Then comes the i1D3, but without a spectro to match, you still have no idea how accurate your calibration really is.

tp4tissue, do yourself a favor and go over to AVS and read some of the recent posts by liberator72, jrref, mrtickleuk, and even our own SamuriHL. Talk about passion...
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Old 21st February 2020, 21:51   #58738  |  Link
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I go back to my point that if you care that much about calibration then you should NOT accept the results of a 250 dollar meter. Because that meter is not accurate enough to calibrate to the professional standards you claim to care about. Then you say it's not worth it on a consumer display because they are also not able to represent the accuracy of a professional studio quality screen. Yea. No kidding. That's kind of the point we're making here. That for all your talk of calibration, you're still not 100% accurate and never will be with the equipment you're using. But yet you tell others that if you don't calibrate they're wrong. Calibrating with the wrong tools isn't exactly right.

@vbb yup lol
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Old 21st February 2020, 22:30   #58739  |  Link
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after some time you will start seeing the ghosting it creates.
Hi, you were right, I lasted about 30 mins with it, its very subtle but its there, its not present with tru motion, I actually find this works really well for my Lg OLED, its likely just be a personal taste thing though.
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Old 21st February 2020, 22:40   #58740  |  Link
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Yea I don't use it either. I find a LITTLE tru motion goes a long way. Some people love SM though.
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